The Future of Women at Work with Minda Harts
In this episode, Don MacPherson is joined by workplace expert, author, podcaster and speaker Minda Harts. Together they discuss how women -- especially women of color -- were disproportionately impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic and what organizations can do to bring back women who have left the workforce. They also discuss paid maternity leave, the wage gap and what is needed to create an equitable work environment.
Minda Harts is the CEO of The Memo LLC, a career development platform that helps women of color advance in the workplace. In 2019, Minda became a bestselling author for her debut book, “The Memo: What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table.” When Minda is not fighting workplace inequality, she serves as an adjunct assistant professor at NYU Wagner.
Don MacPherson:
The pandemic was brutal on women at work. A report by management consulting firm, McKinsey stated that progress women have made in the workplace may have been set back half a decade from COVID-19. To discuss the future of women at work, we welcome Minda Harts. Minda is the author of the best-selling book, The Memo, and a Professor of Public Service at NYU. In this interview, we discuss how women, especially women of color were disproportionately affected by the pandemic and what organizations can do to bring women who have left back to work. We talk about paid maternity leave, the wage gap, and what is necessary to create a fair playing field for all in the workplace. This episode of 12 Geniuses is sponsored by the think2perform Research Institute, an organization committed to advancing moral, purposeful, and emotionally intelligent leadership. Minda, welcome to 12 Geniuses.
Minda Harts:
Hey Don, thanks for having me.
Don MacPherson:
Can you talk about what you do for work?
Minda Harts:
I am working to make the workplace better. So when you sit down, you don't have to worry about sexism, racism, all of the things that don't enable you to do the best work of your career. And so at the end of the day, a workplace consultant in really moving equity forward for women of color. But if women of color have a better seat at the table, then that just makes the table better for everybody.
Don MacPherson:
Can you talk about some of the unique challenges to the path that you have been on and where you are today?
Minda Harts:
So my prior life, I was in Corporate America and I worked as a fundraising consultant. And I was always the only one, the only black woman, the only woman of color in the room at the table at the events. And I just started to tell myself that this is just the way it's going to be, right? That there's never going to be representation that some of the microaggressions or the inequalities I was experiencing, that's just part of the job description, right? And so after a while, I started to settle into those inequalities. And then after about 13 years in my industry, I said, you know what? There's better, right? I don't have to experience this inequality. Maybe this isn't the table for me. And what would it look like to be able to work without those aggressions, right? That happened to be racialized or gender.
And I thought, well, if I'm experiencing this, then maybe other people are experiencing this too. But we're not talking about that like the way we are talking about it now. And so it really led me to investigate, interrogate what would it look like if we don't just talk about women in the workplace, but we actually talk about the intersections of which women experience the workplace. All women don't experience the workplace the same, and especially women who are from marginalized communities. And so it really led me to the equity work to say, let's expand what the table could look like. And so, I started my company in 2015 and then started to create various tools and resources that not only help women of color thrive in the workplace, but also companies and managers to realize that two things can be true at the same time. You may not experience this, but you might have someone on your team that is. And how do we make it better for everybody?
Don MacPherson:
You mentioned tools and resources. What are some of those tools and resources that you've created?
Minda Harts:
2015, I started my company and that was and still is coaching, resources, tools that really help individual women of color lean into their skills, right? Strengthen their strengths, if you will. And then, I went on to create a podcast called Secure The Seat. And then my first book, The Memo: What Women of Color Need To Know To Secure A Seat At The Table. So I'm constantly making sure that I'm creating resources that are helpful and beneficial to the demographic that I serve, but then also those who work with us and who are often our managers.
Don MacPherson:
Could you describe the progress women had made in the workplace leading up to the pandemic?
Minda Harts:
Prior to the pandemic, you were seeing strides with women. We had women CEOs more than ever of Fortune 500 companies. I think it was 32 or something like that at the time. And so that was huge, right? It's not great, but the needle was moving forward. And so, we were seeing those strides and we were seeing the wage gap start to close for women as they continued on in the career. And then, the pandemic happened. And so, it affected a lot of women. A lot of women had to leave the workplace once the pandemic. So you think about, we were crack climbing up the ladder and then you have this catastrophic thing that happens globally.
And so now, a lot of women had to leave the workplace, not because they wanted to, but because of just the system in play. And so, and even when we say women, a lot of the reports out there will say women experienced a loss as opposed to some men. But when you even pull back the cover even further, it was black and brown women that experienced the most loss in the workplace because of the industries that many of us are in. Hotel, retail, hospitality, things of that sort.
Don MacPherson:
I think one of the stats that I came across is that in 2015, 23% of senior positions were held by women. And in 2020, it was 28%. So, that's pretty significant growth. And it seems like the pandemic is negating a bunch of that. And that's what I wanted to talk about. How the pandemic has stalled or negated that progress? What are some of the things that have led to this? We can get into the obvious ones and the not so obvious ones.
Minda Harts:
The obvious ones are many women are mothers, right? So if your children are at home with you working, right? And so if you're a single mother, obviously that makes it even more difficult to maybe perhaps teach your kids while you're trying to work or those sorts of things. Or even if you're a dual family households, sometimes the caretaking tends to be more along the lines of the woman taking care of things. And childcare, the access to childcare before was a little more accessible. And now, it's not as much because for example, a cousin of mine, she had a very thriving daycare before the pandemic. And then, the pandemic happened. She lives in the state of California and her business is still closed. And so, it's one of those things that, what can you do, right? And she still was like, well, I'm hopeful in a few months when things happen, schools open up, those sorts of things.
But her household, she has two children, right? Her husband, he still can do his job, right? So, she's taking care of the household in ways that she had more help before. And so I think that, again, two things can be true at the same time. Many of us still have opportunities to work from home, but even working from home doesn't mean the same thing for women, right? And going back to women of color, if you work at a hotel or you work at a restaurant and that whole industry is affected, you don't have the privilege to be able to maybe go and find another resource, right? Or if you are called back into work, your schools are closed, right? So, who's going to help provide childcare?
So again, I think that a lot of the... Those are the obvious things that I think affect the workplace. But on the flip side, I am an optimist, Don, and I do believe that because we now understand that these are challenges. What are we going to do to create systems inside the workplace that benefit working mothers, right? Or that benefit those who had to leave the workplace and they have that year off their resume, are there returnship programs that companies are thinking about or providing onsite childcare? I think there's so many ways that we can create solutions for many of us have experienced.
Don MacPherson:
We'll talk about solutions in a minute because that's a very interesting part of this conversation. But one of the things that I did want to mention, that I came across, that really blew my mind, and you kind of alluded to it, is it when you have a working couple. The woman in the relationship is 50% more likely to be doing three hours of work at home, 50% more likely than the man is. When you see a number like that, what do you think about that? And how do you help people understand that this is one of the barriers that women have when it comes to succeeding at work?
Minda Harts:
It's sad that it took a pandemic for us to really take a hard look at some of the uneven set of structures and responsibilities inside the household, right? Many are now saying, oh, I guess my partner does do X, Y, and Z, even more than I do. So I think that even though women, and maybe some men even are like, no, I'm not surprised that women do more of the housework. They do their whatever assigned work they might do outside of the house. Then, it does create more of an uneven playing field inside the workplace. And I think that a good friend of mine, her name is Eve Rodsky. She wrote this really great book called Fair Play. And she talks exactly about this is that a lot of women are they're doing free labor inside of the workplace, right? So, they're doing their job.
And then, they're being asked to take notes. They're being asked to plan the parties. All those sorts of things. Then, they come home and they're also cooking the meals, taking care of the kids. So, it's all of this uneven work that's taking place. And I think regardless of if you're married or partnered or what have you, I think we do have to look at the distribution of labor. And again, a lot of women who were in the workforce, they have taken a step back. If you look at the statistics, men, primarily white men, they've actually done better during the pandemic in terms of career. And so we do have to take a look at, why is that? Why is it that women are so heavily affected during this? What would it look like if more men now knowing this who are in more positions of power typically? Or say, you know what? This is not okay. And we need to really take a fine magnifying glass and make sure that we are creating equity.
And that's how we create equity. Because now, all of that great, those statistics that you mentioned earlier, Don, now, were trying to play catch up, right? To get back to those. But the last thing I'll say is in the last year, there were no black women who were CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. Now, we have two. And also, we have made some strides, but again, there's way more people that are experiencing the loss than the gain.
Don MacPherson:
Who are the two black female CEOs?
Minda Harts:
Rosalind Brewer. She is the CEO at Walgreens. And then, Thasunda Duckett. She is the CEO of TIAA-CREF. Is that how you say it? Yeah.
Don MacPherson:
One thing that you mentioned earlier is that there are 30 odd Fortune 500 female CEOs. Back in 1980, and I know this because I used to speak about this. Back in 1980, there was one. And in 1990, there were three. So we have not reached equality obviously, but there has been progress made. And I think that is something that is overlooked sometimes is when you see this number, oh my gosh, it's awful. But fortunately and hopefully, we'll continue to trend in the right direction. We've talked about how the pandemic has affected women and affected them negatively. What are the long-term consequences to this? Because I've heard that the pandemic may have negated half a decade of progress that women have made. But could you talk about some of the long-term consequences to this?
Minda Harts:
So, I think a lot about intentionality in the workplace. And you mentioned in the '80s, there was one. And now, we have as most as we've ever had in our history so far in the thirties. And I think that we can say, oh, well, we'll just see what happens, right? And I think that oftentimes when we're not focused on equity, then we can't get to the solution. So if we don't do anything to make sure that all of those thousands of women who left the workplace, if they don't have a way enter back into it, then that's going to create more of a wage gap than we already have. To give context to it, white women make anywhere around 79 to 80 cents on a dollar, whereas women of color make anywhere from 48 cents to 63 cents on a dollar. So you think about if women of color are the most affected, black and brown women during the pandemic to have to leave the workforce, that's only widening that gap if we don't figure out a way on how to make sure that we're making equitable access for all women.
And so I think if we're not intentional about closing the wage gap, if we're not intentional about making sure that every open position that we have, we make sure that we have a diverse slate of candidates, that we're being intentional about the interview process, so that we can provide opportunities for people to return back, primarily women because they've been most affected. So I think that it's really going take courageous leadership to make sure that we're focusing on making an effort on making sure that women have a rightful place in the workplace. Because if we don't, then you're just going to see those numbers decrease and we're just going to be playing catch up, right? And I think that we were already so far behind, so it's going to take an acceleration of solutions.
And we can do it because if you look in the last year, Don, so many companies that were talking about even racial equity or gender parity were able to move things at an accelerated rate, right? When I consult with a lot of companies and I would say, what do you think about this? They'd say, oh no, we're five years away from that. And then in 2020, we were able to do some of those things in a matter of months, right? But it took that intention. And so I think that if we're intentional about it, there doesn't have to be this strain on women in the workplace.
Don MacPherson:
And why do you think that these companies accelerated this move towards... Making this a priority, was it because it's the right thing to do? Is there a business case? Or is it a combination of both? What do you think?
Minda Harts:
If we're speaking candidly, I think it's the combination of both, right? Because the stats have been there for a while, and I think most companies have known it's the right thing to do, and that still didn't move things any quicker. But what I do think now is there's more an accountability lens, right? People are actually paying attention to what companies are, what they said in 2020, and what they're doing in 2021, right? So there's more people paying attention to not just the rhetoric, but the action. I would encourage companies and leaders to self-regulate. Don't get caught out there someone telling you, oh, you're not doing what you said you're going to do. If you said that equity was important in here or the metrics, then make sure that you're being intentional about moving that needle forward. And when we aren't doing that, being transparent about where we are in the process to make sure that we can figure out what better looks like. And I think those are the companies that win at the end of the day.
Don MacPherson:
What does the government, and when I say government, I mean, local state and federal government, what's their role in helping to accelerate the path back for women who might have left the workplace or been marginalized as a result of the pandemic?
Minda Harts:
The pandemic happened, but there's always going to be something, right? There's always going to be disruption. And so I think that local leaders in community state level, I think it's really incumbent to look at the data and say, okay, if women have been affected across the country, what are the women in my jurisdiction? What are the women in my county? How are they experiencing it, right? So that we drill down into counties, into cities, into states because one city may not have experienced what another city experienced over the past year. And so I do think it's leadership is even if you don't have women making decisions or you don't have someone in leadership that happens to be a woman to say, you know what? I know other women. I know that this is a issue in my community. So, what am I doing to make sure that there's small business loans for women-owned companies?
If you're running again, that maybe part of your platform is making sure that women have a new skills, right? They're upskilling. We have workshops or resources or virtual events to make sure that women have the resources they need. And then maybe there's some incentives for companies, local companies to hire more women and maybe there's some partnerships that can happen there. So I do think that local government has just as much skin in the game or should to make sure that their counties and cities are thriving from a diverse perspective.
Don MacPherson:
And how about at the federal level?
Minda Harts:
Regardless of what side of the aisle you sit on, I do feel like the current administration is tackling the topic around women and how women have been affected. And I think that part of the way that we find solutions, we first have to acknowledge that this is an issue, right? So, I do love the fact that it's being talked about. And I think that in order for us to continue to educate ourselves on what's best, but then the other thing is speaking with women, ask women what they need. We can't be in our ivory towers and say, oh, I think women want these things or they don't want to return back. We actually have to ask people who've been affected by the pandemic. What do you need to be successful? What would you like to do, right? And I think that sometimes as leaders, we make assumptions for what our communities may want, but we actually have to talk to people and find out what good looks like for them.
Don MacPherson:
I'm going to ask you about business's role, but I want to stay on the topic of federal government and ask you about the vice-president. This is a woman of color. And that's your audience, people you talk to on a regular basis, you've written about. What does it mean to have a woman of color in the White House for the first time?
Minda Harts:
Representation matters, it's been a cute saying for a very long time. But it really matters when you actually see it, right? It's one thing to tell a young girl that you can be anything that you dream if you work hard enough, but to never see it. And even for me talking so much about women of color, having a seat at the table, and to actually tell women that, but then be able to point to one to say, that could be you, right? You can achieve it. And I think that a lot of people who are in positions of privilege, whatever that might mean, they might get to see themselves all the time on magazines covers in the government, wherever have you.
And so those who don't get to see themselves, you don't realize how much you're missing until you see it. And so I think for me, for a lot, you can actually point and say, this is achievable. This is obtainable. And so it just helps with my work even more, Don, right? It's not this fictitious thing that women of color can aspire to the highest levels of business or government, but I actually have someone that I can say, she's role modeling it for you right now. And government isn't perfect, business isn't perfect, but if we keep striving for equity, then hopefully everyone will be able to see themselves at every level of business and government.
Don MacPherson:
One of the things that I think is important for people to understand is that progress is not linear, right? It does not continue on the same path. And so, you might have incredible progress and then a regression and then progress again. So, it's important to keep that big picture in mind. So getting back to addressing some of the things that have stalled or negated progress that women have made in the workplace, what can businesses or what can organizations be doing to bring women back to the workplace who have left the workplace? And I know you've talked about a couple or alluded to a couple of these solutions, but in your mind, what should businesses be doing to help bring women back?
Minda Harts:
Yeah. I appreciate this question, Don, because I think oftentimes where businesses and leaders find themselves in trouble is that they're reactive to certain situations that happen, right? So we can be very thoughtful as businesses right now to say, okay, we want people to return back. Maybe your company is saying, I want people to return back by September. What do you need to be providing right now to those returning back so that they can say, I'm able to do that, right? Is it stipends for daycare, right? Is it providing three days a week onsite daycare? Thinking about what are the needs for women to see that this is a company that's welcoming, right? That's thought about what you've experienced over the last year. And so I do think that we really have to, again, make sure you have women at the leadership table to be thoughtful about what does it look like to return back, right?
Okay. Maybe we don't say that you have to work five days a week, but maybe three, because in this county, students aren't returning back to school in the fall, right? And so, that's going to keep women. It could potentially keep some women home who want to return back to work, but we're not making it easy for them to do that. And so I think that we have to think about what are our resources and what are we doing to say, this is the place that respects the various intersections of women, women of color, anyone who feels like they've been affected over the last year. And then, we create options for them. You work in this area too, Don. And I remember there was a time where some managers would say, you can't do this job from home. This has to be done in the office.
Last year, we've noticed there's a lot of things you can do from home that you didn't think you could do from home work-wise, right? And so let's rethink what success looks like and the role that women can play, even if it is from their house. And I just think it's that intentionality for me. And it's really the empathy piece too, right? And making sure there's a budget or a line item to make sure that even not just the women that left maybe that particular workplace, but the future women. We were talking about the future of work, are you creating systems that make it a place for one of the best places for women to work? Because they know that this is part of their priorities. This is a part of the value of the fabric of the company. And I do think we have to decide if that is what we say we want, then we have to demonstrate that.
Don MacPherson:
And I think the last year and a third or so has really exposed limitations in terms of our managers and our leaders. And that if people showed up to work, they were doing their job. That's what a lot of leaders and managers saw. But in a work from home scenario, you need to be very specific with expectations, monitoring, measuring metrics, having providing feedback, things like that. And that really requires an elevated leadership. And that's not something that every leader was ready for and every organization was ready for. So, there's some limitations there. And hopefully, we have elevated over the last 15 or 16 months. But I'm not so sure. I don't know how you feel about that.
Minda Harts:
I'm not so sure either. I think that a lot of managers might not have had the proper training and development to be a great manager when we were back in the office. And that didn't mean you got better when we left the office, right? And so, I think that being a manager requires a lot of different competencies than even we knew a year ago. And I think that is where the another role that the company and leaders need to think about. Okay, well, is this the right person to be managing a team of women, right? Or a diverse talent? Is this the right manager to be talking about these certain things? Or when there is someone who has been infected by COVID or they can't come back five days a week, but they need to be coming back two days a week.
Do we have the type of emotionally intelligent manager that can hear somebody out and think, okay, let's figure out what this could look like? What could success look like, right? And I think that having those difficult conversations should be part of any manager's toolkit that we don't get to opt out of the things that we don't understand or that we don't want to talk about. And I think that's part of creating a workplace that works for everybody is that we have to have managers who understand how to be engaging, listening, and making it better for their talent so that they can do the best work of their career. And I don't think that managers always remember that's part of their job too.
Don MacPherson:
You have talked about this a little bit during the interview, but I want to ask it directly because I want to talk about solutions as well. Can you talk about how women of color have been disproportionately hurt by the pandemic?
Minda Harts:
A lot of the research has pointed that not just all women have been affected by the pandemic, but primarily black and Latino women have had to leave the workforce in droves because of industry related work that closed down during the pandemic. But if we're being honest, Don, the workplace wasn't that great for black and brown women prior to the pandemic then. So, we still needed to create equity for women of color in the workplace. And so now, I do believe that managers understanding and leaders can now be so much more intentional to create a workplace that works for everyone. So if black and brown women are affected in this industry, what are we doing to make sure that they have the resources they need to return back to work, that they have the resources maybe to be partnered with sponsorship, right? Let's do a pay audit to make sure that all women are being paid equally inside of the workplace.
So, I think there's a lot of things that we can still do that should have been done even a year ago. But whatever the reason is, the time is now. Because if we don't do anything, then as we talked about before, it's just going to be create more inequality. And the decisions that we make today will benefit the next generation or it will hurt the next generation, right? And so, I think corporations actually have a unique opportunity to build equity in a way that maybe even some of our laws aren't able to move as quickly. But I do believe that corporations and organizations could have the leadership to make sure that all their employees have access to equity, but it requires changing the system, right? We talk about a seat at the table and the table that was originally built was not built with equity in mind. And so, I know that there are some leaders right now who are fearful of what a different table could look like.
Don MacPherson:
I may just be naive here, but why do you feel there are some people who are resistant to that, to allowing certain people to participate in their company or their economy?
Minda Harts:
I consult with a lot of companies. And I kid you not, over the last two weeks, every company that I've had a introductory phone call with, one of the pain points they've put on the table is that those in the dominant majority in their company, in this case, many white males, not everyone, but there's a large contingency of white men who worry about their place. If we're focusing only on women of color in the workplace, we're only focusing on black women, then what does that mean for me? Because we haven't seen it demonstrated, right? And so if you think if your company's talking only about black lives or brown lives, then you might think that, well, what about me, right? That's valid. I get that, right? That's human nature. But I think that's where we have to say, you know what? What could the table look like if we expanded it, right?
I think so long we've only seen a certain amount of seats and those seats look a certain way, right? So now, we have to expand the table to say, you know what? You still have a place as a white man in this company. But what would it look like if we added some color, right? We added some gender. We added some intersections at the table so that we can serve our base, so we can serve our customers to the best of our abilities, right? So that we're solving problems, not just for people who look like us, but for people who don't. And I think because there hasn't been any role models to what that looks like, there is fear there. And so I think we have to talk about that and address it, but it doesn't have to be a fearful thing because we want equity.
Equity should be at the foundation of this. And if we're talking about equity, then that means everyone has access, not just black and brown people, not just those who identify as white. And I think, because again, since many haven't seen what this diversity could really look like, Don, then they're fearful that it means exclusion. And in my mind, equity is not about exclusion. It's about inclusion. But because we haven't been doing it right, we haven't modeled good inclusion, then some people feel as though this might take away. And I think that's the narrative we have to counter. This isn't about changing leadership. It's about showing that there's various faces to leadership.
Don MacPherson:
When you look out five or 10 years, what do you see as the future for women at work?
Minda Harts:
Again, I'm optimistic. I'm excited about that because it's really dependent on leadership, right? Right now, we get to decide what type of workforce we want to create. A lot of people say the future of work, we're in the future of work right now. And so, it's going to take courageous leadership. It's going to take revolutionary leadership to make sure that we don't just have 33 women CEOs, but what would it look like if we had 50? But if we don't do anything, then that number will, it may go back down to 10. So, we have to continuously make sure we're making progress and pushing the needle. And again, it can't be just women of color saying it. It has to be people who look like you too, Don, right? We all have to be in it, because I often say success is not a solo sport. We're not going to get to equity if only one person is at the microphone, but what would it look like if we're all advocating for each other's success?
Don MacPherson:
I'm a history guy. And so, I really enjoy history. And I look at it in terms of the context of where we are today. And something about the murder of George Floyd really changed. And I don't know if you know this, but I'm in Minneapolis, a block from where the trial took place. And something about that was... So, the reaction to it was so different. And just looking at sports and how the 1968 Olympics, you had John Carlos and Tommie Smith on the stand accepting their medals. And they were shunned when they came back to US. Or Colin Kaepernick kneeling for the national anthem and he was driven out of the NFL. I have no doubt about that in my mind. But when the NBA players went on strike during the playoffs last year, I thought to myself, oh my goodness, these are people who are making tens of millions of dollars to play a game and they're risking everything.
And they won. They made billionaire owners say, okay, we're going to take this seriously. And so, I share your optimism. I really do. I feel very positive that the conditions are right to change, not only opportunities for women, but also for people of color. Thank you for sharing that. You wrote a book called The Memo: What Women of Color Need To Know To Secure A Seat At The Table. It's career advice guide for women of color. How does the advice you give in this book differ from other books providing business advice to women?
Minda Harts:
It's one of the first books about the experiences of women of color in the workplace by a major publisher. And so, all of the books that have been written before about women in the workplace were written through the experiences of white women and be talking about women as a whole. And so, as we talked about before, not all women experience the workplace, we don't even get paid the same. And so I wanted to be able to say, it's hard to lean in when you're not even in the room. It's hard to lean in if people aren't even considering what your experience is like as being the only one. And so The Memo was written with women of color in mind to say, hey, I know that this environment might be hard for you, but let's talk about networking, right? Who are some of your... Who could be a champion in the workplace for you, so it doesn't feel so isolating?
If you're not making X amount of dollars, what would it look like to negotiate? I talk about those things. And then on the other side of it, I write a book for our managers, for our colleagues, for those who want to be more inclusive leaders and co-workers or allies to say, oh, I wasn't aware that my colleague might be experiencing this, right? Or if I comment or touch my colleagues here that I might not mean harm, but it still caused harm, right? So, talking about some of those things in The Memo. I'm happy that it's out in the world because it just helps shed light on that, we might all work at the same place, but we don't all experience that workplace the same.
Don MacPherson:
It's my understanding, Minda, that the United States is the only industrialized country that does not provide paid family leave for women when they have a baby. And I'm just wondering how much that affects women's career when they have a baby. I think it's one of the contributors to the wage gap that we talked about. And I also think that it can stall a career, whether that's self-imposed by the woman or by the company. And I just wanted to ask about that because I don't think that we can have a conversation about the future of women at work in the United States without addressing this.
Minda Harts:
I'm really happy to see more and more companies offering paternal leave because prior, for those companies that even offer maternity leave, it's on the mother, right? And so now, realizing that families can look different. And so, it's important that both parties have an opportunity to take that leave if necessary. And if you're not offering it, I think two things are an issue. One, I have a lot of friends who have not had any children yet because their companies don't offer maternity leave, or they're so far up the ladder that they fear if they have a child now, that it takes them off the partner track or it takes them off CEO track. And I think that's part of the bias that's embedded inside of our culture. We're not creating paths for women.
And again, women might want to have kids or you have women who might not want to or they want to adopt. But if they don't see a path that accommodates yes, and, then that is an issue or that they shouldn't have to choose between. And I think the archaic way of looking at women in the workplace saying that you can't have it all and the workplace is dictating what a woman can have. What would we do if we have a option in your benefits package to say, yes, we offer this and here's some other additional suites, right? If we're talking to the women in our companies, then we're finding out what they need. And also too, on the flip side, let's not take dads or those acting as caregivers or guardians that they need to be able to have access to that.
At my brother's place of employment, they just offer paternity leave. So when he had his second child, he was able to take that time off, right? And his wife was able to continue to build her career. But I think so long you have a lot of people in positions who weren't thinking, they're thinking very archaic in terms of what women can do and what they can't do in the workplace. And I think that is the bias that we can no longer function in because that's going to also hold women back in the workplace, not because of anything they did or didn't do, but you should have options. And again, if we want to create a workplace that works for everybody, we have to have solutions accessible to them.
Don MacPherson:
Minda, this has been a phenomenal conversation. Where can people learn more about you? Where can they buy The Memo? And where can they pre-order your book that I think is coming out in October, the book is called Right Within?
Minda Harts:
Thanks again, Don, for having me. Great conversation. You all can go to mindaharts.com. All of my information is there, as well as The Memo can be bought, wherever books are sold. And you can also pre-order Right Within right now, wherever books are sold.
Don MacPherson:
Minda, again, thank you for your time and thank you for being a genius.
Minda Harts:
Thank you.
Don MacPherson:
Thank you for listening to 12 Geniuses. This is the last episode of season four of the show. I want to thank the 12 incredible guests who appeared with us. A special thanks to think2perform Research Institute for sponsoring 12 Geniuses. And thank you for spending your time with us. We hope this show has been valuable and will help you further succeed at work and in life. Thanks for listening, and thank you for being a genius.
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