E7 The End of Retirement as We Know It
Today, retirement is being redefined. Nearly 60% of employees over 60 plan to continue working, but on their terms. As economist, journalist, and retirement expert Chris Farrell explains in this episode, taking on a job after retirement can have great health benefits and improve quality of life.
Many people who reach traditional retirement age are reinventing themselves because they know they still have a great deal to contribute to society. Others continue to work because the extra income is helping them live the kind of life they want. This has significant implications for organizations that are interested in engaging and retaining their most experienced people. Shifting careers later in life may seem daunting, but with the right tools and advice, changing careers is possible.
Another topic Chris addresses in this interview is FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early). Many young people, particularly in well-paid technology jobs, are choosing to amass large sums of money and opt out of the workforce in their 40s, or even 30s. Chris shares his thoughts on what that means to organizations that lose these people and the prospects for someone who ends their career prematurely.
Chris Farrell has studied retirement and the shifts in our aging workforce extensively. An author of five books including Unretirement and Purpose and a Paycheck, Chris is an expert on how we can find happiness, health, and security in our later years.
Chris Farrell:
People spend a whole life developing a career, having experiences, having different jobs, all kinds of ups and downs. Not that it's all happy and wonderful, but your skills, your experience becomes a big part of who you are and of your identity, and we all want to be useful. So, the notion that you hit this arbitrary age, this chronological age of 60, or 62, or 65, and you say goodbye to all that experience, all that skill for the rest of your life, more and more people have decided, that's not how I want to live.
Don MacPherson:
If you have ever wondered what separates top performers from everyone else, you probably discovered it is just a couple differentiators that determine wild success from average results. My name is Don MacPherson, and for two decades, I've been working with executives to help them optimize performance at the individual, team, and organization levels. Now I interview exceptional performers in athletics, music, entertainment, and business, so we can all learn from them. Welcome to 12 Geniuses.
More than 10,000 baby boomers are turning 65 every day in the United States. And that will continue for the next decade. 65 used to mean retirement. It marked the end of a career and a slower pace of life. Our guest today is economist, writer, reporter, and podcaster, Chris Farrell. In part one of the interview, he's going to talk about the future of retirement. In his book on retirement, Chris sheds light on how and why baby boomers are redefining retirement and what that means for younger workers, employers, and our economy. In part two of the interview, Chris will discuss how some companies are embracing innovation in order to fight off obsolescence. And he gives advice on what you can do to stay relevant in a world of constant change.
Chris, welcome to 12 Geniuses.
Chris Farrell:
Well, thank you for having me.
Don MacPherson:
Let's start by talking about what retirement has traditionally been in the United States. It's been a finish line of sorts. 65 is a magic marker. Can you tell us a little bit more about the mindset of retirement and its history?
Chris Farrell:
Well, the thing about retirement in the United States is that it was a remarkable moment in history. So, we just look at our country. People didn't retire. You basically worked until you died. And retirement was around three years. That was the story throughout most of our history. Then you look at the Great Depression and we had the Social Security Act. And then in the post-World War II era, you had Medicare and Medicaid. A lot of the big companies offered their employees the traditional defined-benefit pension plan, the one that rewarded you for years of service, plus whatever was your salary, so you get paid. For the first time in history, a lot of people could retire. They could embrace leisure for the rest of their lives. And that had only been available to the wealthy for most of history.
Don MacPherson:
Are people happier in retirement than they were prior to retirement?
Chris Farrell:
No. what has happened is, when you retire, there's something… There was a moment when people didn't live that long after they retired, and you moved to another part of the country, and you had to embrace this leisure, and it was wonderful. But if you think there's something very strange about the notion of retirement, which, in the French basis of this word, is to withdraw, to isolate. People spend a whole life developing a career, having experiences, having different jobs, all kinds of ups and downs. Not that it's all happy and wonderful, but your skills, your experience becomes a big part of who you are and of your identity, and we all want to be useful.
So, the notion that you hit this arbitrary age, this chronological age of 60, or 62, or 65, and you say goodbye to all that experience, all that skill for the rest of your life, more and more people have decided, that's not how I want to live. What I want to do is do something different. And by the way, I also need to bring in some extra income. So, there's this conversation that's happening among an aging population that's saying to each other, what's next?
Don MacPherson:
You have a podcast called Unretirement, and you have written a book called Unretirement. What is unretirement?
Chris Farrell:
So, unretirement is this rethinking, reimagining the second half to last third of life, to include work, to include earning an income. Now, there are some people in our society, had very good careers, they have lots of savings, and they continue to be very important in our community. They're on the boards, they do a lot of nonprofit work, and they don't have to worry about money. There are some people where the notion of not working, well, that's just a luxury, right? They have to work. They have no choice. They need to work. They need to work to pay those bills. But there's a majority of Americans where they need to work and they want to work. It's like one of those false distinctions in our society. Whenever I talk about this, people say, “Well, do they want to work or do they need to work?”
And the answer is, it's both. Because it transforms the economics of getting older, if you continue to work, and we can talk about that in terms of what it does in your savings. But it's also about trying to find something that you really want to be doing, that you feel like you're making a difference.
Don MacPherson:
Need to work. Does that necessarily mean just financial or are there other elements that contribute to needing to work?
Chris Farrell:
So, the other elements, I'm glad you asked that because this is one of the most underappreciated aspects of work. When they did the surveys of people have retired, fully retired, and they say, “What do you most miss about your previous life?” It's always colleagues, suppliers, vendors, people you knew. Income's on that list, but it's actually pretty far down. So, work is a social institution. And in our society, it’s probably the strongest social institution that we have. And there's this notion, well, of course, you're going to volunteer, you're going to do all these charitable activities.
But if you think about most people, they work hard, they're raising a family. And yes, the temple at the church at certain activities they spend some time with, but that has not been a major part of their life. And where they find that their skills are appreciated is when they're earning a little bit of money.
Don MacPherson:
Let's talk about longevity because this is really important. I think there's something like one in four 65-year-olds will live to 90, one in 10 will live to 95. That has to play a factor in this, right?
Chris Farrell:
It does. And I think there's a couple ways that it plays a factor. One, the notion that when you're starting your career, you have a family, you want to educate your children. And the notion that you're going to be able to save enough money during that period of time to live for another 20 to 30 years, off that savings, it's unreasonable. You just really can't do it. Most people can't do it. The other reality is for people who have children, they spent a lot of money on their children, and kids are really expensive. Wonderful, but they're expensive. So, when they leave the house and you're an empty nester, you have a real chance to earn some money, you have a chance to boost your savings. And if you're going to be healthy and you're educated, or you're skilled, you're going want to work for more years.
Don MacPherson:
What about mental acuity and just staying sharp and using one's mind rather than just putting it on the shelf? Is that an element, a factor when you're talking with folks?
Chris Farrell:
And the thing about being in a workplace is you're constantly having to learn new things. You're having to talk to people. And, by the way, someone cares that you show up. So, you have to get up, you have to brush your teeth, you have to take a shower, and you have to get dressed, and you have to physically get yourself to work. And that, in itself, is a very healthy thing to be doing. So, you have to be physically active. Then you get to work and there's all kinds of expectations. And, by the way, I don't know what's with these IT departments, but they're always coming up with a new piece of software that you may have to learn, or there's a new training program, or they've decided customer service is going to be different. Well, you may complain about those things, but what is it? Hercule Poirot said the little gray cells. The little gray cells have to work.
Don MacPherson:
What advice do you have for someone who wants or needs to change jobs or make a career shift, but has a gap in the skills they need to do that job?
Chris Farrell:
A big part of it is, what are your skills? What really are your skills? Forget your job title. Forget what it is society says you do. Here's what your job, you're a truck driver, or you're a journalist, or you're in human resources, but what is it that you really do in terms of communication? What skills do you have? And think about those skills and then think about, what is it I think I'd like to be doing? And then tap into your network. The most valuable asset that somebody has, 50 years and over, is their network. Your network will help you think about, what do I want to do? And then your network is how you're going to be able to do what it is you want to do next.
Don MacPherson:
Because if you think filling out a resume and sending it into a human resources department at a company is the way you're going to get a job when you're 50 and over, not going to happen. But your network looks at you and they know your character. They know what you can do. They say, “She's a good person. She's somebody that this company should have on their payroll.” And they'll make a phone call for you.
A point you make rather emphatically on your podcast is that the concept of unretirement is not just for white-collar workers. Can you talk about unretirement for skilled labor?
Chris Farrell:
Yes. So, I think one of the pernicious divides in our society and the way we talk is we talk about the educated workforce and the non-educated workforce. Well, that non-educated workforce is highly skilled. Many people are highly skilled. Just a quick anecdote, went down to Pittsburgh and I met with a bunch of machinists. Now, they were all in their 70s and 80s. And they were helping young people become machinists. They were running an apprenticeship program. And they were wonderful. And they had to do it because they needed some money, but they loved what they were doing. They called themselves artists, and they were teaching their art, their craft to the younger generation, of whom many were coming from the local jail. And yet, they would get a job.
And they talked about the American dream that if this person, this young person learns these skills, it will help them get a job. Then they're going to have a job, and then they can get married, and they can have kids, and they can own their own home. And that's how they talked about it. So many people in the skilled labor force, the machinists, the electricians, the plumbers, they teach the younger generation. So, maybe their body does wear out. Maybe it's just a little bit too tough to be doing a regular machining job now. And then we had this notion that they're broken down. But no, what they're doing, many of them, is teaching the younger generation.
Don MacPherson:
There's a concept, and maybe even a movement, called FIRE, which is financially independent, retire early. It's a movement where a lot of younger workers are signing up. They're saying, “I'm going to make a ton of money. I'm going to retire and just live simply.” It sounds like unretirement, right? But is this wise for somebody who is 35, 40 years old who check out from where their bread and butter is coming from.
Chris Farrell:
So, I'm really skeptical about the fire movement. Now, there are some things that I like about it. I like the thrift and the frugality. My problem there with the thrift and frugality is that I think thrift and frugality is about quality, not about quantity. A lot of times what they're doing is getting stuff as cheap as possible, right? Because they're really trying to boost those savings as opposed to being mindful about the purchase that they're making and thinking about the sustainability of the purchase that they're making. The other thing is, I think, work is much more than a paycheck and work is a community. Work has skill.
There's learning, there's knowledge, there's usefulness. It's kind of what ties many of us together. So, I admire their desire for freedom, but this notion that you just crunch down and you say 50%, 60% of your income, what kind of a life does that become? When I look at a Picasso or I look at a Matisse, and artists, and what they have done over their lives, and their engagement with their work, if that's what FIRE is going to be doing for you, I say, go for it, but I'm suspicious.
Don:
We've really focused on the United States and unretirement here, or the concept are shifting idea of what retirement is. What's happening in other countries?
Chris Farrell:
So, aging is a global phenomenon. Every place is aging. If you look at China, they have much more rapidly aging population than the U.S. South Korea, their population is aging very quickly. Japan has the major industrialized nations, the oldest population. The U.S., actually, is relatively young, and will stay relatively young because of immigration and the effects of immigration. So, this is a global phenomenon. Europe, which has an older population than the U.S., in some ways now, I think has some advantages over the U.S., but they've changed a lot of their laws, and they are encouraging later work lives, and it's happening. But the difference there is, because of universal healthcare and universal retirement and deeper training programs, I actually think it's going to be easier for them in the future to have a healthier aged workforce.
Don MacPherson:
With baby boomers working longer and choosing second careers or going down different paths or routes, how does this affect younger workers?
Chris Farrell:
There are two answers to that. One is to think about the woman's movement. If you go back and you look at some of the articles that were written in the late 1970s, early 1980s, oh, there's not going to be any openings for men and because all these women are coming into the job market and the paid job market. What's happened is that our economy has grown by a third because of women coming into the labor market over that period of time. The pie has simply gotten bigger. The opportunities have gotten bigger. And the same story is true with immigration.
In one sense, we're all in the same boat. When older workers, their job market is doing well, younger workers are doing well. When older workers aren't, younger workers typically aren't. The other thing is that there's also this notion that okay, working longer means you've been at this job for 15 years, you've been with this company. You're going to stay for another 10. No. Typically, people do retire. 40% of the people, 65 and older, who are working, had retired. And then they came back into the workforce. A lot of this movement is not to be continuing to do the exact same thing that you've been doing for the past 10, 15, 20 years. It's about using your skills, it's about using your knowledge, but often, people want to go to a different company, a different organization.
Maybe they go from the for-profit sector to the not-for-profit sector. And you're around different people, you have different missions, and it's exciting, and it's fun. For one thing, I think the job market continues to be in flux and those opportunities are still there. And it's also the wrong image. The job market is not a zero-sum game. It's a positive-sum game.
Don MacPherson:
You have a book coming out. It sounds like you just finished the manuscript, sent it off to the publisher. What's the name of the book or what's the topic of the book?
Chris Farrell:
Well, actually, as we're having this conversation, this morning at 9:30, I sent it off.
Don MacPherson:
You did? Congratulations.
Chris Farrell:
That's it. I don't think I can do anything else. It's gone.
Don MacPherson:
You seem like you're standing up a little straighter, getting that off your back.
Chris Farrell:
Yes, absolutely. This one's Purpose and a Paycheck, and it's really a discussion about the positive economics of an aging population. It's looking at a lot of the research that people can be, at least, as creative in their 50s and 60s and 70s as they were in their 20s or 30s, if not more creative, and that they can be just as productive and all that research that looks into productivity. But the bottom-line message is that the leading edge of rethinking work when it comes to an aging population is entrepreneurship. There is this flourishing of entrepreneurship that is going on in the 55- to 64-year-old age group.
There's also another flourishing that's shown, once people qualify for Medicare, there's another big bump up in entrepreneurship. And if you look at self-employment, the largest group of self-employed, as a percentage, is the 65 plus.
Don MacPherson:
Chris, what other resources can you point people to, who are thinking about exploring the next phase of their career?
Chris Farrell
So, there's a growing ecosystem that is dealing with this. And Kerry Hanon, for example, AARP, she writes wonderful books about getting a job after age 50. I write for PBS Next Avenue, which is the PBS online magazine targeted toward the 50 plus generation. I don't know if you noticed, but now The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Financial Times, they've really increased their coverage of this sort of encore, careers, encore jobs. There is an organization called encore.org, and it's all about encouraging people, 50 plus, to embrace and take their knowledge and skills in an encore career, addressing some of the big social issues in our society.
Don MacPherson:
Our guest today is economist and business guru, Chris Farrell. When we come back, we are going to talk about technology, disruption, and what individuals and organizations can do to thrive in the future.
This is the best time in human history to be alive. People are living longer, healthier lives, millions of people are escaping abject poverty every year, and diseases that used to be a death sentence are on the ropes. But the world is changing quickly, too. Artificial intelligence, advanced robotics, 3D printing, the internet of things, and a host of other technologies will change the way we live and work. Is your organization ready for it? 12 Geniuses isn't just a podcast. We are an organization that educates leaders about the changing world of work, so you can harness new technologies, demographic changes, and innovative business models. To learn how 12 Geniuses can help prepare your leadership team to take advantage of the changes that will shape the next decade, check us out at 12geniuses.com.
Chris, there's an incredible wave of new technology like artificial intelligence, advanced robotics, 3D printing, and the like that are just getting traction. With these new technologies in mind, are you optimistic about the future of work?
Chris Farrell:
Now, you're going to be shocked, absolutely shocked that I'm optimistic about the future of work. I know that, but I also think there are good reasons to be optimistic about the future of work. Hey Don, did you ever see that movie Desk Set? It was Katharine Hepburn and Dick Tracy.
Don MacPherson:
I have not. No.
Chris Farrell:
Late 1950s. And it was all about the computer coming in and going to replace the librarian, right? We weren't going to have any librarians anymore. Well, of course, we do have librarians, and the computer did not replace the librarian. Of course, jobs are going to be destroyed. That is the history of technology, but it's also that jobs will be created. And there's really no reason to believe that so many jobs will be destroyed, that we enter into an employment dystopia, which is really the deep fear. There is this fear that this time is different because of the robots, because of the artificial intelligence, that this is something different.
(20:48):
And we're really entering to a period of long-term unemployment. And yet, the experts that have looked into this, in the history of technology, what they've always found is never underestimate the ability of the entrepreneur to come up with new ways to pick your pocket. So, they may automate certain things and they may use artificial intelligence for certain things, but they always come up with new ways to use humans. And when they do these anthropological studies inside of companies that have really automated their systems, it turns out they end up hiring a lot of human beings. The notion of an unemployment dystopia, mass unemployment, I'm highly skeptical of that.
Don MacPherson:
One of the things that seems different this time around with new technologies being introduced is the speed with which they're being introduced and just the rate of evolution. That doesn't scare you at all?
Chris Farrell:
No. And, in fact, I'm in the camp that believes that we need to speed up the technological adaptation. Because one of the real puzzlements in our society is, why in the U.S. isn't productivity higher? Why isn't output per worker higher? And if you look at the technology sectors of the economy, we have really high productivity. It's really high. So, using numbers from Michael Mandel, Progressive Policy Institute, an economist, when he looked at the… We are digital, has a big presence. Productivity's running like 2.8%, and that's a really strong number. But when you look at healthcare, education, and manufacturing, it's around, not even 1%, like seven tenths of a percent.
So, his argument, which I think is right, is that digital hasn't gone deep enough into a lot of our businesses. And the reason why it hasn't is that management had a line of workers out the door, long line of workers out the door. And they didn't have to pay on that much. And, of course, they invested in new technologies, but they didn't have to invest massive amounts of money in new technologies. What's happening now with the tight labor markets that we're living with and managements constantly complaining about a shortage of workers, I think you're going to see a wave of investment.
Don MacPherson:
How should current workers be thinking about evolving their skills and the way they provide value to their organizations in order to thrive in this world of new technologies?
Chris Farrell:
You have to think about your skills. You have to think about what it is you want to be doing. And, by the way, if your employer is willing to pay for any training, any education, take advantage of it because not all employers are, but they're much more willing these days. And, in fact, if your employer hasn't been paying much on training, I would approach them today and say, “You know what? I like my job, but in order to stay here, I need to add to these skills.” My bet is they'll go, “Okay, I'm not going to pay you any more money, but I actually will pay for that class because that's to my benefit.” Now, you're going to take that at some point.
So, invest in your skills and education. As citizens, I think we have to really say, “Look, as a society, we have to invest more in training, in retraining, in training, in retraining throughout the life course, because right now we rely too much on individuals to take the initiative and too much on individuals to reach into their own pockets and pay for it.
Don MacPherson:
That's a great topic. So, let's stay there. Can you give some examples of companies that have best practices in terms of making sure that their employees stay skilled, stay trained, evolved toward where they need to be in order for that individual to continue to add value for the organization?
Chris Farrell:
A couple years ago I went up to Herman Miller, was just in Zealand, Michigan, and Herman Miller is a global office furniture company. I know they do a little more than that, but that's, I think, most people are aware of them. It's the Aeron chair, and it's manufactured in the U.S. They have an American-based workforce. And that's always been what they have done. And they worked very closely with Toyota in terms of instituting various quality control measures, and quality manufacturing, but they also invest a lot in the training of their workers. So, there's an example, a company that invested in the training of its workers, because it decided, we're going to be an American-made company.
And at the same time, they instituted some programs that were open to everybody. But typically, the only people who took advantage of it were 55 plus. For example, you can take 12 weeks off a year, or less. You don't have to take the 12 weeks. It can be three weeks, it can be six weeks, it can be 12 weeks. The only trick is it has to be consecutive. And you keep all your benefits. You're not paid during that period of time. And what they found is their older workers would help move aging parents to Florida, or they do some work at the home that they've been wanting to remodel, or they go out and start a little business that they're testing on, but they would always come back because they needed a break, 12 weeks. But they would come back, and that was one way that you could keep an older workforce.
Don MacPherson:
What advice do you have for an employee who is afraid that their skills might become outdated or they may become irrelevant to their current organization?
Chris Farrell:
I'm really empathetic to that. I think what you have to do is be realistic. And what does that mean? What does that really mean? Does it mean that you’re afraid that your skills are going to become obsolete, or is it that you're being passed over? And it's not that the organization dislikes you, it's not that the organization wants you out the door, but they're not going to invest in you anymore. Well, I think that's a signal. And the signal is, is this the place that I want to be working? And the thing that you want to be doing is to be proactive. One of the big changes in our society, it’s an unfortunate change, and you can date it back to the mid-1980s, and Business Week, the discover story, 1986, the end of corporate loyalty.
And businesses really embrace mass layoffs. Because before that period of time, if you got fired from your job, or you got laid off from your job, there was something wrong with you. It was your fault. In today's world, someone gets laid off, there's a downsizing, hey, that's just part of what companies do. It says nothing about you. It's just that they made a decision to put capital over here as opposed to putting capital over there. So, I think what you really want to do is look at your skills, what skills you need, and ask yourself, “Where is it I want to go next? Because, if you're worried that way, more than likely, you're dissatisfied with your company, you're dissatisfied with your future. And so, I would invest in the skills to make a leap to where you want to go next.
By the way, that's really easy to say. One of the hardest things that I have realized in talking to people, and many people agree with just what I said, but what is it you want to do next? It's not always easy to figure that out.
Don MacPherson:
It's very difficult, in fact. I want to come back to your podcast because I had a delightful past two days listening to the eight episodes.
Chris Farrell:
Oh, thank you.
Don MacPherson:
Yes. One of the things that was recommended on the podcast is not only do self-examination, but surround yourself with people who can help you with that self-Examination, right?
Chris Farrell:
That's right. No one's an island. And if you're in a company, just a situation that you've described, and you're starting to feel, okay, this isn't working. I am worried about my skills becoming obsolete or this isn't quite working. It's reach out to your network, reach out to the people who know who you are, and talk to your people, talk to your network. And learn from them because you're part of a community, and tap into that community, because that community will, both help you figure out what comes next, but also what education you need, what training you need. And it may turn out that you actually have the skills to make the transition, you just haven't realized it.
Don MacPherson:
Let's say you're sitting across the table from a CEO or other executive at a company that is very likely going to be disrupted. What advice do you give them?
Chris Farrell:
So, more than likely, the CEO is somewhat aware that they're going to be disrupted. So, the first part of the conversation is, how aggressive are you going to be? How aggressive are you willing to be in terms of addressing the disruption? Because some companies say, “Well, we can maintain our position for a period of time. So, why disrupt? Let's just continue doing what we're doing until the marketplace makes it apparent that this is no longer valuable. And by the way, I'm going to be retired by then, or I'm going to be going into a different company.” And that sounds cynical, but if you think about it, it's not unlikely that many companies have made a calculation somewhat along those lines.
Don MacPherson:
100%.
Chris Farrell:
But if the CEO's really serious, then I would look around your company and say, “Who are the people who really believe in this product? Who are the people who really believe in this company?” You know who the really good people are. Unleash them, but then recognize, you don't have to accept everything before you better put capital and your reputation behind them.
Don MacPherson:
Do you have a routine or practice that you put in place to help make sure that you stay relevant?
Chris Farrell:
Yeah, I'm a journalist, and you're out there talking to people all the time. So, as you get older, you do recognize certain opportunities get close to you, certain capital doesn't get invested in you, but there are so many opportunities out there that your journalism has become, for someone who is willing to act more like an entrepreneur, be more self-employed, there are opportunities there. I feel like I'm constantly talking to people, I'm constantly learning, I'm still curious, I'm still ambitious, I'm surrounded by, let's say, young and middle-aged people who are just that I like, and they like me, and we feed off of each other. Every once in a while, you go, “If I were 28 years old, I bet that opportunity would open up for me. I bet it's probably not going to happen now, but there are so many other opportunities going on there.”
Don MacPherson:
When you think about the way that we live and work and how it's going to change, is there a particular technology or demographic shift that catches you and captivates you, and you're studying? Is there something that really, really strikes you fancy?
Chris Farrell:
Well, I think the thing that I've become recently fascinated by is the 50 Plus Entrepreneur. And the leading edge of the 50 Plus Entrepreneur are women. And so, I think this is one of the better changes in our society where there's just a lot of women who have been disadvantaged in their careers, typically paid less, typically certain opportunities were not available to them. But in the course of their careers, because they had to, they developed a certain set of skills, networking skills, ability to come in and out of the market, more recognizing their skill and being less attached to their job title. And they're actually, in many cases, looking at what's going on right now as an opportunity to create a business. And they have some really good ideas.
I think this is one of the most exciting transformations in our society. And it's also reaching down into minority groups. And I'm also particularly interested in immigrant entrepreneurs, and what can we learn from immigrant entrepreneurs? Wherever you're in the United States, there's a street, there's always a street where there's lots of immigrant businesses. So, ask yourself, how'd they start this business? And how do they manage to stay in business? What can we learn from the immigrant entrepreneur? I think there's an enormous amount that we can, and it's untapped, and I think it's fascinating.
Don MacPherson:
All right, Chris. This has been a phenomenal conversation.
Chris Farrell:
Oh, it’s been fun.
Don MacPherson:
Thank you for doing this. Where can people learn more about you either on traditional media or social media?
Chris Farrell:
One way to get into it is go to PBS nextavenue.org, so it's nextavenue.org, and then you'll get into all my articles about working longer.
Don MacPherson:
And we will put these resources in the show page notes. Chris, thank you for being a genius.
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