Transcript for “Staying Curious on Contentious Issues" with Scott Shigeoka
Election season often highlights a range of hot-button topics, from abortion to immigration, which becomes trickier to navigate when conversations pop up with friends or at the dinner table. While we’re often told to be curious about other perspectives, many of us do not know where to start. Worse, we don’t know how to stay curious about issues that elicit our strong opinions. In this interview, curiosity expert Scott Shigeoka shares his research and in-the-field experience using curiosity to navigate polarizing issues. Scott talks about the personal benefits experience when people are curious. He goes on to talk about how people can become more curious and why maintaining boundaries and earning the right to be curious are important. He finishes the discussion by sharing what he learned on a year-long, 4,500 mile “curiosity journey” across the United States that gave him the opportunity to meet, talk with, and connect with people from a wide variety of backgrounds.
Scott Shigeoka is a globally recognized curiosity expert, speaker, and the award-winning author of SEEK: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World. He popularizes research that promotes positive well-being and relationships, including at UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Center and through his groundbreaking courses at the University of Texas at Austin. He has spoken at universities, schools, companies, and conferences around the world. He is also a screenwriter and playwright.
Scott Shigeoka: We are all feeling othered in different ways, stigmatized. And we need to move away from that. We need to actually see people for their full stories for our common humanity, our shared suffering. That’s what compassion is. And a big part of how to access that is by being genuinely heart centered, deeply curious towards others.
Don MacPherson: That is Scott Shigeoka. He’s a curiosity expert and the author of the book, Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World. Scott joined 12 Geniuses to discuss how we can all become more curious, especially with people who might have different political views than our own.
My name is Don MacPherson, your host of 12 Geniuses. Heading into any election season can be divisive, that’s why 12 Geniuses has partnered with Starts With Us on this series to help you navigate the overall 2024 election. In this episode, Scott Shigeoka teaches us the benefits we gain from being more curious and how we can use our curiosity to better understand people with different political beliefs. Scott also shares what he learned on his year-long 4,500-mile curiosity journey around the United States.
Thank you to Starts With Us for their collaboration on this series. Starts With Us is an organization committed to overcoming extreme political and cultural division. Check them out at startwith.us.
Scott, welcome to 12 Geniuses.
Scott: Thanks so much. So happy to be on with you.
Don: You’re a curiosity expert. What does that mean?
Scott: For me, that’s meant spending the past couple of years really digging deeply into the research — what does it mean for us to be curious? How do we become curious? What does that do for us in our lives and our relationships? Much of that exploration has been at UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Center, which is really… you can think of it as an academic center that translates research into language, articles, podcasts, stories that make sense to the general public because sometimes even I will read a white paper, and I’m just like, “What is this actually saying? What is the insight of this research that we can distill?” So, we translate that research into accessible, digestible language in many formats. That’s been a big part of my curiosity journey.
And then the other part of that has been living it. Not just doing, seeing the research and understanding it, but actually applying it and practicing it. A big part of that has been a 13-month road trip across the country, meeting people who are very different from me. They are much older than me, much younger than me. They have voted for a presidential candidate that I oppose. They are part of faith traditions that are very different from my own, come from different backgrounds. Yeah, I spent 13 months on the road, really using the research-based strategies and practices to see if we could actually bridge or devise, and if we could come back together and I could form relationships even though we vehemently disagree about many important political issues.
Don: It sounds like you’ve always been curious, and I know you’re going to tell us how curiosity can be developed, but do you think that it was something you observed from your parents or your family that sparked your curiosity? Or where did that originate?
Scott: Yeah, everyone, and my mom and my dad are especially really curious humans. And they really stoked that in me. And the research actually shows that when you are surrounded by people who are very curious, it’s more likely that you will become curious. And so in that way, curiosity is contagious. I remember my mom would bring me to these festivals where I would learn about different cultures. My best favorite place growing up was the library. My sister and I would just pour ourselves into books. And I was one of those kids. Many folks here who are listening have similar kids like me, where we asked why, and I asked why all the time. It was my favorite question. I had a million questions about everything.
So, I’ve always been a really curious person. And the research shows that we are all born with curiosity, right? And that makes sense. Our ancestors needed someone to be curious in the group so that we could identify different foods. Can we eat that mushroom? Is there water on the other side of that mountain? How do we track a buffalo? All of these different things that lead to our own survival. But it’s also really key for our learning. We know that curiosity, even at an infant stage of getting curious about your vocal anatomy, which is what I did as a little kid, helped me to babble, like, ’wow, oh, ah, and, and that helped me to start to form words and then sentences. And so curiosity is also an intellectual pursuit. But it wasn’t until late 20s that I started to recognize, wow, curiosity isn’t just intellectual, it’s not just about survival. It’s really this heart centered pursuit as well.
When I’m really curious towards someone and I’m asking them questions, and I’m genuinely interested in them, they feel heard, they feel seen, they feel valued, they feel like they matter. And that is something I feel too. If someone’s being incurious towards me, I feel dismissed, rejected, dejected. It makes sense that the opposite would make me feel sensations of warmth and closeness and help me to build connections to other people. But yeah, in general, I do think that curiosity is a muscle. So, no, this won’t be a depressing conversation. There is a way for us to exercise our curiosity to get better at it even though we all start from the same place of being born with curiosity. And I think that’s really our biggest, most potent tool for bridging our divide.
Don: What does the research tell us about personal and professional benefits of being curious?
Scott: We know that curiosity helps us to strengthen the relationships that we have with others around us. It helps us to feel closer to people. And our families, or even folks who we have differences with, it can create a sense of connection, a sense of warmth. That’s what we call social curiosity in the research. But it also has all of these wellbeing impacts as well. So, we find that curious people are happier people. And so a lot of folks listening in to these kinds of podcasts are always in the search of striving towards happiness. It makes sense. When I think about my elders who are constantly engaged with the world, they’re very active, they’re in their 80s or 90s, and they’re constantly learning. They’re constantly staying connected to people, staying curious with the world.
They tell me that’s what keeps him alive, that’s what keeps him going. And similarly, there’s research that show that the higher levels of curiosity you have, the lower mortality rates you have, especially for older adults. So, it quite literally adds to your lifespan. That’s some of the groundwork I like to talk about with curiosity. There’s a whole plethora of research on curiosity. It’s really remarkable mindset and practice we don’t talk about enough. And it reduces anxiety and fear. It can support us with feeling closer to people who are very different from us. It reduces aggression. It helps us to navigate conflict. There’s so much research on curiosity and all the benefits it has for us.
Don: And at work, I think from a leadership effectiveness perspective, it cultivates a sense of belonging among employees, greater employee engagement, innovation, psychological wellbeing, or psychological safety. There’s a ton of different benefits at work as well, right?
Scott: Yeah. Oh, so much at work. Yeah. I mean, and that’s why I’m brought in often to speak or to do work with corporations or small businesses, or even larger nonprofit organizations, or schools, is they see the benefit to create a more creative culture when folks are curious and asking questions and exploring, what else is out there outside of the walls of our own institution? What else is going on in the world and culture that we can learn from, be inspired by? Even increasing innovation, because when you’re more curious, you might be looking at different unusual suspects and bringing them into the collaborative process and thinking about problems in different ways that you can… in solving them in different ways. So, curiosity really drives innovation and creativity. And also, like you said, because of these wellbeing impacts, it helps with getting the right people through the door, retaining them, just helping people feel happier at work, and also, for me, what’s more important.
Then that is also helping them feel happier in their homes because they have this tool that they can use to increase their wellbeing and their healthy relationships in their families and in their communities. Yeah, there’s a ton of benefits for companies. And I think it’s the number one most important skill we need to be teaching in K-12 schools and in workplaces. Because when you’re a second grader and you’re learning different things in school, the world you’re about to be in by the time you graduate from high school is going to look a lot different because of all of the advances that we’re making, culturally, technologically, etc.
And so curiosity is that skill that’s going to keep you engaged with the world and is going to keep you fresh and always understanding and always learning and always growing as the world grows too. So, it’s the 21st century skill that I think every leader needs to have.
Don: Other than being the first one to eat that poisonous mushroom, what are some of the other risks about being curious? Because there are some risks involved as well, especially if you’re not doing it the right way.
Scott: It’s important for us to remember that curiosity really goes hand in hand with boundaries. And so, sure, you might have questions about hair culture, prosthetics, pregnancies, but it doesn’t mean that you deserve that information or that it is even right for you to ask those questions when there are other ways that you can learn things that are interesting or important for you to learn about. I like to start there, to say that curiosity is not deserved, it is earned. And then the other piece I would also say is there’s all these speed bumps to curiosity, if it’s so good for us. We build these relationships, we are happier, we have better workplace environments, why aren’t we doing it? What gets in the way of us not choosing to spend more time being curious?
And a big speed bump that gets in the way is trauma. I’ve talked to trauma-informed therapists for the book, and also just generally because I’m really interested in that topic as someone that has gone through my own traumas and is interested in the process of healing. And what you’ll learn is that being curious, inwardly curious, so there’s three directions of curiosity — inward, outward, and the beyond. Inward curiosity means how do you get curious about yourself, your own stories, your feelings, your emotions, your past. It’s really an inward journey. But getting curious about yourself and your own trauma in particular, and talking about it and exploring it, especially when that’s not done with professional support or with the right structure, can actually harm you or even harm others, right? And so trauma is another big one that I like to talk about with curiosity that, yeah, it’s important for you to heal and it’s important for you to get curious about it, but if you just do it in a very haphazard way, you can really trigger flashbacks. You can really make things even harder and more difficult for you.
Don: I’m wondering why you feel that curiosity is a superpower.
Scott: It’s not just about our own individualistic desires and goals being met through curiosity, it’s also how can we be in service of the world around us. And in this world where we are breaking right now, our relationships are fracturing, we’re seeing this immense amount of othering. And I felt this, too, as someone who’s queer, as someone who’s Asian-American, and others are feeling it too because of their political party, maybe as a Republican or their faith traditions, maybe as Muslim. We are all feeling othered in different ways, stigmatized. And we need to move away from that. We need to actually see people for their full stories, for our common humanity, our shared suffering. That’s what compassion is. And a big part of how to access that is by being genuinely heart-centered, deeply curious towards others.
Don: I just had a conversation with a real good friend, we’ve known each other for about 20 years, and we were talking about superpowers, and I was saying in a rapidly changing world, trust is a superpower, relationships is a superpower, being curious is a superpower. And it’s not just curiosity about other people. That’s important, yes, but it’s curiosity around trends and new technologies and things like that. Because if you turn your back to those trends, you get passed by. And so I am in complete agreement with you around this being a superpower and that we all need it. And to get to know each other, to bridge this political divide, and also to remain relevant in the workplace and in society.
Scott: Yeah. And I think that’s the outward direction of curiosity, right? There’s three directions of curiosity, how do we get curious about others and the world around us, the trends, culture, narratives that are at play. That’s super important. And inward curiosity is so important as well. How do we get curious about the inner world that’s inside of us, what we want, what we need, how we communicate with others, what we love, what we hate, what we what emotions we feel in different moments, what our past experiences have been, our old stories that we’re holding onto? What is the inner child that’s yearning for attention? And why? All of those questions that we do maybe in therapy, we do with our closest friends, our partners, or on our own in spiritual communities or mindfulness communities. And not that those can’t be in the same community.
But I think that inward curiosity is also so important, especially for me as someone who often disassociated by using my curiosity towards others as a way to push away any curiosity towards myself. Because that was really scary. It created a lot of fear and anxiety for me. I was like, if I keep the spotlight on other people, I never really have to focus on all that dark stuff and scary stuff that’s inside of me. So that inward curiosity is just as important as the outward. And there’s also the third direction, which is the beyond. So how do we get curious about what’s not in the physical realm? And that could be God, the divine, exploring more spiritual themes, which is something that’s important to me and others. But if you’re not religious or spiritual, it could also be, how do I get curious about my ancestors who are no longer here?
How do I get curious about seven generations from now, those who are not yet born? But think about the world they’re about to inherit and what I can do today to be in service of them, seven generations from now. That is really important too, to not just think about ourselves or those around us currently, but also what’s beyond too.
Don: You use this phrase, ‘era of incuriosity,’ and I have two questions about that. When did this era start? And what does that term mean?
Scott: There’s just so much incuriosity that’s happening towards one another. We are just totally incurious about people who have different views from us politically. And we like to be certain and stand in our own points of view and say, “This group of people that votes in a different way from us, they are deranged, they’re uneducated, they don’t know what they’re talking about. They’re going to be the downfall of our entire country.” Whether you’re a Republican or Democrat, that’s a whole mass of people that you’re talking about. And neither of us are just monolithic groups. There’s a spectrum of what it means to be a Democrat or Republican. And the other piece is just around incuriosity across other social divides, right? It’s not just political, it’s happening across generations.
Okay, boomer, entitled millennials. There’s all of this friction, and that’s why I’ve been so excited by organizations like CoGenerate that are really bridging the generational divides. I think about what’s happening among faith traditions and violence or animosity, vitriol that’s happening between faiths. That’s why I’m really excited about the work of organizations like Interfaith America, doing really great work of interfaith dialogue and connection and solidarity. But yeah, you can basically look at any social area of society and find an immense amount of incuriosity and division, where people are refusing to turn towards people. And instead, they believe that they know everything about someone or group of people, they’re unwilling to learn anything else. And that’s that. And we also bring that into our interpersonal relationships as a result of that existing in our culture.
We’ve been in a partnership with our romantic partner, our spouse for 20 years, and we think we know everything about them, so we don’t need to ask them any more questions. Instead, I’m going to look at my phone when they walk in through the door after work. Or we have incuriosity about our kid when they come back from school and they feel a little sad because they feel like they did really bad on a school project. And we bring our incuriosity by saying, “No, you didn’t do bad, you did great. I saw that project, you did great. And you got an A. What more do you want?” Us almost gaslighting our children by saying the way you see the world and the way that you understand this situation in the school project is wrong. Let me reframe that for you. Let me tell you a totally contradictory statement. That is incuriosity.
Don: And do you think that this era started as a result of social media? Or when do you think it started, and what do you think the cause is?
Scott: I think this has existed throughout time, but it’s getting worse and worse, I would say. And because of things like social media… and Reuters-Ipsos poll found after the 2016 presidential elections, which I think was another moment of friction for our country in the United States, I would say Brexit for the UK, there’s all of these sort of moments of rupture that have happened across the world, for us, I think the 2016 election was a big one. And one in six ended some kind of relationship because of the presidential election. One in six. That is so many people to end some kind of a relationship because of-
Don: A friendship or a romantic partnership. Wow, that’s incredible.
Scott: Yeah. Reuters-Ipsos poll. It’s like a really powerful statistic. And that’s a lot of fraying relationships that are happening at a large scale. We just can’t continue to do that. If we continue to one sixth here, one sixth the next year, we’re not going to have any relationships left to actually have and enjoy. But also the relationships we have are going to look so homogenous. We’re never going to learn about the experiences and the perspectives of other people who have walked or have gone through different lives than us, who have experienced different things than us. And that’s a really sad but also a problematic world that we definitely cannot co-create. So we need to be curious.
Don: What do you think an America without curiosity looks and feels like?
Scott: Today? I don’t know.
Don: I was hoping you weren’t going to say that.
Scott: Yeah. I mean, hop on social media, I will bet on your wall, you will find dehumanization that is happening. And it makes sense. There is such suffering and injustice that’s happening in our world. And I understand that there’s so much emotion that comes with that, right? As someone who loves psychology, I understand that those emotions are valid, when we have anger, when we have sadness, fear. These things will come up because we are human, and when we see a geopolitical crisis happening abroad that may impact our families or communities or those that we love. But to get it to a point where we’re literally dehumanizing one another.
Don: We’re living in this era of incuriosity, how do we overcome it?
Scott: You can really start in small ways. Remember the science of habit formation. That what’s the thing you can do today for five to 10 minutes that’s easy and something that’s more likely for you to do on a daily basis that gets you into that journey of curiosity? That might be asking a little bit of a deeper question to a loved one and your family. That might be taking a 5 to 10-minute curiosity walk outside and really just being in tune with all of your senses of the environment that’s around you. Curiosity doesn’t have to be going to a political rally of the opposing party as your first step. And to know that, just like we can sometimes feel, ugh, I don’t have time to get to the gym, I don’t have time to go for a run right now, we can have those same feelings with curiosity.
We’ve so much on our plates, especially in this increasingly demanding world that we live in. And our responsibilities, because we live in a society that has failed and betrayed us in many ways, we have more responsibilities than ever with less and less community or infrastructure support. And so I can understand that. That’s a valid response. But just like when you go to the gym or you go running and you’re so glad that you did it after your run or after your exercise because you are releasing all of these really wonderful hormones and you’re creating a sense of health and wellness for yourself, and it’s just making you not only physically healthier, but mentally more sound.
The same is true for curiosity. We actually know when we put people under FMRIs, Matthias Gruber and other researchers have found that we release dopamine when we are curious. I also talk about the framework, the DIVE framework is another big way to… how do you actually be curious? It’s not enough to say, “Be curious, Scott.” How do you actually do that? And that’s why I wrote the DIVE model in the book. It’s a specific framework. Yeah.
Don: To me, the DIVE model is that framework for this is your calendar, your running calendar to go back to your… I want to run a marathon and I’ve never done this before. The DIVE model really helps you understand what you need to do. And it’s the three-mile run the first month, and then it gets you to the six-mile run. So, you build up to it through the DIVE model. And I’d love for you to just walk us through quickly what is included in that model.
Scott: So DIVE is an acronym, D-I-V-E. It stands for the four core muscles that we need to exercise to practice deep curiosity. So D stands for detach, which is how do we let go of our ABCs, assumptions, biases, certainty? This is the idea that we live in this culture that rewards answers more than we reward questions. In fact, we can actually have consequences or punishments for questions and exploration. And this is a culture that also pushes us to be certain about things all the time. We want to be certain about a point of view, we want to seem certain to others. When actually the research shows that certainty can lead to arrogance and make you less likable. So, practicing more intellectual humility and curiosity can actually help you to build stronger connections, be more attractive to others, be more likable, more communal, more friendly.
How do we really move away from these assumptions we have about others, interrupt our biases, and move away from this culture of certainty? I is intend, which is how do you create the mindset and the setting for deep curiosity? That’s about when you’re going to have a deeply curious conversation with a coworker or with someone in your family, are you thinking about the questions that you’re going to ask? Have you slept well before you have that conversation? What’s the mindset going in? And are you going to be like a professional athlete and actually mentally rehearse what that conversation is going to look like so you have the best chance of improving your performance?
And then there’s setting, which is what’s the physical setting that you’re in to be curious with others in. There’s a difference between having a conversation on a really busy, chaotic subway ride than in your home around the dinner table where there’s this intention and phones are put away. So, what is a physical setting? That’s I, intend. V is value. How do you see the dignity of the person you’re being curious with, which includes yourself? This is a lot of what we talked about, so I won’t go into too much detail here, but this is about, you have to start from a place of common humanity and not dehumanize people in order to actually get curious about them.
The minute you dehumanize them, you’re not going to be interested in learning about them because they are less than you, or they’re othered, or they’re them. And then the last is E, which is embrace. How do you welcome the hard times in your life? Because when we push away the hard times, or we don’t fully engage with them, whether it’s us losing someone that we really love, or we’re going through the grief process right now of currently losing someone that we love, a heartbreak, losing our job, struggling with a diagnosis of some kind in our own health, those are all things that we can sometimes push away with incuriosity, but we lose learning so much about ourselves and others.
And curiosity can actually be helpful for us in those moments. We can ask questions like, who in my community or in my network can I lean on to get support during this time? What are the ways that I can show up for myself so that I can best show up for the people that I love? How do I really acknowledge even the negative emotions that I or others are feeling through this really hard experience? All of that really, really helps and gives us tremendous insight and growth for our lives. So, DIVE is a DIVE motto.
Don: What recommendations do you have for people who want to discuss a hot-button issue like abortion or gun control or immigration?
Scott: Yeah. Well, I think, well, I’m just curious about what, why, first of all, like, why are you looking to explore that or talk about that topic? And oftentimes what I find is that folks are doing it because they want to change someone else’s perspective or mind. I totally understand the importance of advocacy and ensuring that we’re building a more just world. I also agree that not all polarization is bad. Sometimes we actually need it to put a spotlight on suffering and to create changes in a society. Toxic polarization is bad, though. But I do think that if you’re coming into a conversation with a goal to change someone else’s mind, you’re not going to likely be successful at doing that because it’s going to potentially put them on the defensive.
Most people are not dense. We feel when someone is trying to manipulate us or change something about us that doesn’t really affirm or validate us and who we are. It puts us on the defensive. Oftentimes, we get more aggressive. It’s just not going to lead to a great outcome. But if you can truly just tell yourself and be okay with, “I’m coming in with true curiosity, open-hearted curiosity. I may not agree with the things that I hear, but I’m here to just understand this person that is in front of me and understand why it is that they think this way about this topic that is completely different than my view. And I’m here to just learn a little bit more.” And if you come from that perspective, I think you’re going to set yourself up for a much better conversation than the former.
Don: I’m curious if you have any words of advice or caution for someone whose identity is strongly linked to their political beliefs. So, I’m a Democrat, I’m a liberal, or I’m a Republican, and this is who I am. What words of caution might you have for those people?
Scott: Well, first I just have validation. I mean, I totally understand that we feel really strongly about our different identities and ideologies. That make sense, especially in the culture we’re in. I think it’s important for us to have a sense of identity and to move through the world in that way. I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with people having particular identities and feeling strongly about them. But if our identities start to infringe on the health and happiness and security of other people, the rights of other people, starts to create injustice in some way because our view is the only view that matters, or our identity is the only identity that matters, and we will go to no end to make sure that that’s the case, that’s where it starts to get problematic.
Don: We are recording this in November of 2023. The 2024 presidential election and federal election is less than a year away. What advice would you give people navigating political or contentious conversations as we lead up to that election?
Scott: Well clearly I’m the curiosity guy, so I would say stay curious, right? And when you’re learning about, how do I want to vote in this election? Stay curious. Stay really open-minded and open-hearted. Try to talk to people or engage in news and organizations that do work on many different topic areas that are related to the vote that you’re about to have. Learn about the candidates, get curious about them, talk to people in your own communities, and just get engaged and active in that way. And then the other piece is we’re probably going to have a lot of family reunion, dinner conversations, PTA chats with the neighbor next to you that might involve politics because it’s going to be on everybody’s front of mind.
And so to just remember to stay in that place of curiosity, especially of maintaining that strong connection is important to you and you don’t want to be that statistic of the one in six that ended a relationship as a result of the 2016 elections. I would say stay curious so that you can stay connected to one another. And know that you being curious towards someone else will inspire, likely for them, to be curious about you and to learn about your own values, beliefs, stories, what’s important for you as well. And then the last and really important thing I would say is that curiosity empower are very directly related. The direction of curiosity matters. So, if you are coming from a social group that has more social power, where your stories are more often heard in culture, on the news, in your narrative, then you are the person that needs to be curious more often.
That is what the research shows that will lead to, everybody that you interact with, feeling a sense of closeness and a sense of deeper connection to you and to them. If you have more social power because your stories are more heard in a workplace, in the news, in the family, wherever, you should be the one being more curious. And vice versa, if you come from a group with less social power and your stories aren’t often heard in culture or in the dominant narrative, it’s more important for you to perspective give, to share your story, to share your voice. It’s really important for people to be curious towards you and to hear what you have to say, and the experiences that you’ve had.
Don: You embarked on this incredible 4,500-mile journey across the United States. And I’m curious to know, of course, because we’re talking about curiosity here, what did you learn about what connects Americans regardless of our political views?
Scott: We all experience immense pain. We all do not like the experience of being othered and ostracized in some way or unheard. And in many ways, what that boils down to is people feel devalued when they are turned away from and when people are incurious towards them. Whether that’s their sibling who’s doing it or whether that’s their boss that’s doing it, or the greater society they feel is doing it. And so I just learned that we all actually love curiosity. We love it when people are curious about us and what we think and what we believe. It feels good for us to be curious towards other people. And that’s something we share. We all have this, again, superpower for curiosity.
I would just remember that when you’re going off in your life and you’re working or in your families or picking up the groceries, or whatever it is, every person you interact with has this incredible story that I hope that you will be curious about. And not that you deserve it, that you will hopefully one day earn it through building trust in a relationship. And that when you’re courageous and you ask that question, that question that’s a little bit deeper than what you would normally ask, you might get into a conversation or even a relationship that’s really meaningful to you that you otherwise wouldn’t have had you not.
Don: What’s the most profound way that that 13th month trip changed you?
Scott: It made me realize that the work that we all are doing, from my perspective, is work of the spirit of the soul, it’s to really undo hate, undo violence, undo suffering, and to really move towards a place that I think is much more divine and much more peaceful and much more loving and much more connected. And so I’ve learned a lot since then about different faith traditions and spiritual rituals. And I’m exploring my own spirituality again, which is a big thing, especially for someone who’s queer, who grew up with a lot of self-hatred and a lot of shame because of religious dominant narratives that made me feel that way because I’m queer. And so that feels exciting for me to re-engage with the great beyond. So that was a huge transformation for me.
Don: Scott, you’re so energetic and you seem so optimistic, and I’m curious what fills you with that sense of optimism?
Scott: Yeah, and I had to learn, by the way, not to be toxically positive or optimistic because that’s really problematic and harmful too. Seriously, when folks have negative reactions or talking about suffering or talking about things that are going wrong, sometimes my younger self would be like, “No, everything’s great. Let’s be optimistic. We can…” That’s not helpful. That is actually invalidating and me being incurious, right?
Don: That’s true. Yeah.
Scott: I think I have optimism with curiosity and also a deep comfort around acknowledging that when people are having negative experiences, and obviously I’m growing and growing in that, I’m not a perfect person, but I think a big part of it is, just what I think about curiosity, that it’s a life… It’s not just love, right? Love is a verb, and how do we actually live out love? Is by being curious towards one another. Curiosity is love in that way. But I also think curiosity is living and is staying alive. And so I’m like, if I just stay curious, if I learn about people in the world, and the experiences inside of me and outside of me, I just become more alive and active and engaged and more optimistic as a result. When I become more incurious and I close myself off, and I’m like, “Oh my God, we’re doomed. There’s like no way that we’re going to get past any of these big issues in society,” because we are losing on many of them, like climate change, right? It’s very scary.
But the minute I become incurious and I seep into certainty, and I’m like, “I, as this one individual, know exactly how the future’s going to play out in the next 50 years because I’m all-knowing,” when I come from that place of incuriosity, I feel so dejected and so depleted, so hopeless. I do not feel optimistic. So, curiosity actually is my feel for optimism. It fills that reservoir of hope, and I just stay curious towards myself and towards others, and towards the world around me, and towards the divine. And I feel so energized and so optimistic as a result.
Don: Scott, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for your time, and thank you for being a genius.
Scott: Thanks, Don.
Don: Thank you for listening to 12 Geniuses. In our next episode, I interview Steven Olikara, who is the Founder and Former CEO of Millennial Action Project. In our conversation, Steven and I discussed the issue of aging politicians in the U.S. and what is being done to encourage younger leaders to run for office. If you are learning from and enjoying the podcast, please share it with others who might find value in it, and please consider rating the show on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening, and thank you for being a genius.