Transcript for “Dealing with Toxic Leadership” with Dr. Mitchell Kusy
Join our host Don MacPherson and Dr. Mitchell Kusy as they discuss toxic leadership and how to navigate the Great Resignation in Season Six of 12 Geniuses.
Dr. Kusy has authored and co-authored several books including Why I don’t Work Here Anymore and Toxic Workplace! He has served as a consultant and keynote speaker for hundreds of organizations that are working to create a positive work culture.
In this episode, Dr. Kusy and Don talk about what toxic leadership is, how your organization can avoid hiring a toxic leader, the importance of creating a healthy culture, and what leaders can do to combat the Great Resignation. Join us as we discuss the topic of toxic leadership and how to navigate it.
Don MacPherson:
Hello, this is Don MacPherson, your host of 12 Geniuses. I have the incredible job of interviewing geniuses from around the world about the trends shaping the way we live and work. Our guest today is Dr. Mitchell Kusy. He is a professor in the graduate school of leadership and change at Antioch University and a consultant with the Healthy Workforce Institute. He has authored or coauthored several books, including Toxic Workplace and Why I Don’t Work Here Anymore. In this episode, we discuss what toxic leadership is, how your organization can avoid hiring a toxic leader and what you can do to manage a toxic leader if you work for one. We also talk about the importance of creating a healthy culture and what leaders can do to combat the Great Resignation. Mitch, welcome to 12 Geniuses.
Mitchell Kusy:
Thanks Don. It's really a pleasure to be here in your fabulous organization.
Don MacPherson:
Let's start with your background. How did you get interested in the topic of leadership?
Mitchell Kusy:
Well, this is really interesting. I started out years ago as a psychotherapist doing individual family and group therapy. And during that time I started working more and more with leaders and got very interested in leadership development and then actually left psychotherapy, went to work for Health Partners in the Twin Cities and then America Express Financial Advisors also in the Twin Cities where I was head of leadership development for the organization. I really enjoyed teaching. And what was interesting for me is even though I was in a leadership development position as I moved up, if you will, the organizational ladder, I was doing less classroom kinds of work. And I really enjoyed that. So I decided, Hey, why not? I'm gonna become a professor. And I did. I went to work for the University of St. Thomas. I was there for 17 years as a professor and I started their doctoral program in organization development. And now I'm at Antioch University, the PhD program in leadership and change. And I've been there for about 15 years. And that in and of itself is a really unique program because we have students who are working professionals from all walks of life, all leadership areas, and they come to face to face class for one week from all over the world. And in between we have virtual classes with them. So, I am delighted to have had all these venues in my career. And here I am now,
Don MacPherson:
When you think about the best leader you ever had, who is that individual and what did they teach you?
Mitchell Kusy:
Well, you know, I don't wanna put the leader on the spot as to who the best leader is. It is an individual I can say who has a tremendous amount of empathy, engages people, and is also not afraid to make decisions when a team is having difficulty with the decision of course, trying to achieve consensus. But what we know from the leadership literature in the research is you can't all always achieve consensus and time moves on and we need to make a decision. So this leader has all the aspects of being able to engage a group. She teaches every day in terms of not necessarily classroom teaching, but teaching and how to engage people in meaningful conversations and live out the vision of the organization. So that was the best leader I've ever had.
Don MacPherson:
A number of years ago, you wrote a book called Toxic Workplace, and that's actually, when we first met, I helped you with the research on that. You worked with Dr. Elizabeth Holloway to write that book. And first I wanted to talk about the word toxic, because I feel like that word has been overused a lot. When you wrote Toxic Workplace, how were you defining that?
Mitchell Kusy:
We defined it as any kind of counterproductive work behaviors, that's a pattern, that it could impact an individual or a team or the organization. And since then, I've added with, with my new book that has come out, Why I Don’t Work Here Anymore. I've added a revision to that. In addition to what I just said about a pattern, those three areas, toxic behaviors need to be targeted, harmful and repeated. So either an individual or a group is targeted, it's harmful to the individual, no matter the intention, and it's repeated. So those three perspectives need to be in place in order for something to be labeled as toxic along with the first definition that I gave counterproductive work behaviors that impact the individual team or the organization.
Don MacPherson:
So what are the, what are the most common examples of these targeted, harmful and repeated behaviors?
Mitchell Kusy:
We found, we found three categories. If you will. One category is the behavior of shaming individuals who humiliate others, um, either one on one or in a group. And sometimes it could even be part of this. Shaming could be someone is sarcastic. However, remember the definition I just gave you, it needs to be a pattern. So we all use sarcasm in various ways in our, in our lives. And if you're using sarcasm as a form of humor, then you know what? You wouldn't worry about being toxic. But if your intention is to harm someone, it's a pattern and it's repeated, then it's a shaming behavior. So the first category is shaming. The second is what we termed passive hostility. Most individuals see this as passive aggressive behaviors. The way I look at this is, you know, getting your anger out at someone in very crooked ways. And rather than saying, I'm angry with you, or let's talk about this, it's upsetting to me. So the second is passive hostility and the third is what we termed a team sabotage…ways to sabotage and harm the efforts of the team to make yourself look good. And you, and what we found is you don't need all three, any one of these behaviors, shaming, passive hostility, or team sabotage could categorize as a toxic individual.
Don MacPherson:
It's so interesting because I'm nodding my head and I assume a lot of listeners are nodding their heads. When you're talking about shaming and passive hostility, and team sabotage, I'm just like, oh yeah, I've seen that. I've seen that. I've seen that. I've done that. I've done that.
Mitchell Kusy:
So here's, here's the interesting thing. It happens to all of us. We all have had bad days. We have all got up on the wrong side of the bed. We've all acted at times uncivil to someone. Remember, is it targeted? Is it harmful? And is it repeated? And if so, then look at that behavior. And what's interesting is when you just said, “we've all done,” that I've said we've all done. That that brings up another fascinating research perspective from our study. And that is most toxic individuals are clueless about the impact of their behavior on others. So just by what you said right now, Don, that, “Hey, I wonder have I done that?” That's actually a good sign. That's a good sign that, yeah, maybe at times you're aware that you're uncivil and I'm uncivil, but it's not toxic behaviors because most toxic individuals are clueless about the impact of their behavior on others. And if you were to say this, tell someone and not even use the term toxic, I wanna talk about your harmful behavior and this is what's happening. But truly a toxic individual is likely to say, well, I know I do that, but you know what, I'm doing it for the right reasons. And I'm the only one who has the guts to do XYZ. They don't understand the, the devastation they're leaving in the wake.
Don MacPherson:
So a couple things that come to mind, one, if I'm a CEO, or if I'm head of HR, I'm going to want to try to assess for this type of individual and not hire them. So is there a way to assess for this?
Mitchell Kusy:
Uh, most, uh, individuals who are being interviewed for professional positions, it's a team interview, either team all on one or a number of people are interviewing that individual, which is great. I totally support that. Those who are not part of the interviewing process, receptionist, maintenance people, uh, cafeteria, people, drivers. So what you do ahead of time, if you're the person coordinating the interview, you go to those in individuals and say, “you may or may not have an opportunity interview or to, uh, meet this individual. But if do I have two or three questions, I'd like you to think about?” And in my book I have what I call the recruiting Q sheet. Some of the questions are things like did this person seem to be an individual who would live out the values of our organization? Did this individual engage you in conversation, those kinds of things. And, and then after the interviewing process, you go back and collect the information from those individuals and you bring that to the interviewing committee. It doesn't necessarily mean you're not gonna hire that individual. However, if there's something that's a red flag, you can ask the individual about this who is being interviewed. You could ask some of their references. Hey, some of the people notice this, and this is one of the primary strategies. That's no cost. It has maximum benefit.
Don MacPherson:
That's a great strategy. I love that. Let me ask you for another tip or advice for dealing with a toxic personality or toxic leader. Let's say I'm a direct report of one of those toxic leaders. How do I manage that person and still remain true to myself? How do I manage that person so I can effectively work?
Mitchell Kusy:
Well, there's, there's several strategies, one of the first things, but I have, and I have a, a template for this in my book, Why I Don't Work Here Anymore. And it's, uh, a template to, to have you, first of all, assess how bad is the problem. And would you be better essentially, would you be better off to quit or to go to another division of the organization or to stay? So it's a decision tree. That's the first thing. Second is to talk with someone that you trust, who knows this individual and to ask them for advice on, am I being overly sensitive here? Should I be talking with someone? So that's the second piece. Third is if indeed you want to have a conversation with the individual. Many organizations have a human resources department and they are really critical and a significant player here. They can help you frame how to have the conversation with this individual.
They can also help you frame. Indeed. Do you want to go it alone? Or do you want to go with a human resource person. That relates to the fourth strategy that find out if other individuals are having the same issue that you are with this person. There's power in numbers. And if indeed they are, my suggestion is the first time you may want to go to this individual alone. But if it's threatening, go with other individuals who are having the same problem, yes, it may appear that you're ganging up on this person, your, your role, your intention is noble to try to change this behavior. And, and sometimes people won't go it alone because they feel that they can be fired. There's a very high probability. A leader is not gonna fire three people at once. So those would be some of the strategies that are reactive.
Mitchell Kusy:
Once you're in that situation. One of the proactive strategies is something that I, I term the skip-level discussion. And this is proactive in which leaders in the organization say, I wanna find out all the things that are, are, are you getting the kind of leadership that you need? It could be positive or negative. And what I, as a leader am gonna do is going to talk with individuals two levels below me, if you will. So I want to have a conversation if you're a vice president and you have a director reporting to you, you wanna have a conversation with those who are managers reporting to that individual, and you want to find out what are they, what are all the positive things that this person is engaging in? And what are those things that need to be improved upon? And you're not doing it behind anyone's back. Everyone in the organization knows this is being done. And interestingly, in a previous organization that I worked, this was done throughout the organization. Everyone knew it was protocol to because I really believe everyone has the right and responsibility of having a good leader.
Don MacPherson:
What kind of results do toxic workplaces have? Did, did you come across that in your research?
Mitchell Kusy:
No one industry has done any more pronounced research than healthcare. Let me share with you some of the statistics from various research studies, and then I'll talk about the research study of my own, what I discovered about the bottom line impact. What we know in healthcare is that, and it depends on who you read Don, uh, and which researchers you're referring to, but in various studies, anywhere from 60 to 80% of professionals found that the patient experience is harmed by toxic behaviors. And let me give an example of that. If you have a physician and a nurse that aren't communicating, because of the fear of some shaming behaviors, they may not communicate with the, the provider and subsequently what happens is that, um, the patient is harmed. Now, how could this be? Let me share with you a piece of information away from the statistic that, that backs up the statistic.
I was doing a keynote address one year to a non-healthcare group, a 500 person group. And I was relating some of these healthcare statistics, such as, um, 30.7% of nurses knew someone who quit as a result of toxic behaviors, 65% reported abuse laterally and 77% reported abuse vertically, vertically physician to nurse, nurse manager to clinic nurse, um, 65%, a lateral nurse to nurse, physician to physician. 75% would go to another individual to interpret the order rather than go to the initiating provider if the provider is shaming and intimidating. So now you think, see probably pretty easily how errors could occur. So I I'm relating these statistics and a gentleman raises his hand - 500 people in the room - He says, “Mitch, my wife is a nurse just last night. She reported that she disagreed with a medication order and she went to three other individuals to help interpret the order.”
And of course I knew the answer to this, but I asked just to clarify for the group and “was one of those individuals, the initiating provider?” He said, “no, it was not.” And then a woman raises her hand and says, “Mitch. I'm a surgeon. I have to demand perfectionism in the operating suite. I have to be intimidating. There can be no errors in the operating suite.” And then she issued this question to me, and it was a nasty, passive, aggressive shaming question. “Would you want to go to a surgeon who isn't perfect” and I'm dying up there in the podium. And finally I said after maybe 10 seconds, but it felt like five minutes doctor. “I want to go to a surgeon. If they're about to make a mistake, someone feels comfortable enough to call them on that error.” There was utter silence in the room.
So first of all, we know in healthcare that intimidating behaviors harm the patient experience, harm patient and safety. And we also know that 15% of professionals actually attribute this intimidating behavior to patient death. So first of all, in healthcare, and we're all impacted by healthcare. That's one of statistics. Second, you asked about the impact on performance and productivity. Uh, what I've found is that in general, toxic behaviors cost 6% an average of at least 6%, total compensation, 6% of total compensation. So if your organization is paying $100 million, let's say for compensation, at least $6 million of that can be to a toxic person. So, so this helps organizations when the toxic individual is a high achiever and bringing a lot of productivity into the organization. But what people don't realize back to what we were talking about earlier, those who kiss up to people with power, knock down to people without power, they don't understand what's happening in the wake of individuals. And now with a Great Resignation, more and more people are quitting.
Don MacPherson:
Let's talk about how we untangle a toxic workplace. And if I understand correctly, you have three systems of respectful engagement. Is that the recipe for untangling a toxic workplace?
Mitchell Kusy:
Well, if first of all, it's, it's a system. One of the things that Elizabeth Holloway and I found in our three-year study is that the number one unsuccessful strategy that leaders use most…I’m going to repeat that. The number one unsuccessful strategy that leaders use most is feedback, is coaching, is talk with a person. First of all, I'm not saying that feedback and coaching doesn't work. What we found is that feedback and coaching has a high probability of failure, without understanding the system that allows people to get away with bad behavior. So one of the very first things that I do as a consultant when I'm coming into the organization is I do an assessment of finding out where are the gaps? Why are individuals allowed to get away with bad behavior? Is it because of a few individuals, uh, and it's only a pocket in the organization, or is it because, uh, money is promoted as the number one driver and no matter what kind of behavior it is, or is it because that there's a progressive discipline process, but the discipline isn't promoted because of a number of variables. They're afraid to give consequences out, just think of a, well, you have two kids, Don, if there are no consequences, positive or negative for their behavior, they're going do what they want. So subsequently I come in and do an assessment and then determine some of the successful interventions to help them rebuild their system of respect.
Don MacPherson:
One of the things that I found remarkable when I was researching for this interview is that 94% of workers experience toxic or uncivil behaviors at work and 51% are likely to quit, which takes us to the Great Resignation and your other book that we're going to talk about, which is Why I Don't Work Here Anymore. So that came out in 2017. And I'm just curious if the principles that you wrote about follow what we are seeing with this Great Resignation?
Mitchell Kusy:
Don, I find that at the time people were reluctant to quit, but they stuck it out longer because jobs weren't plentiful. Now, what I'm finding with the Great Resignation is people are saying, “I don't have to take it anymore. I have my choice of three jobs.” We, we really need to look at this 70, uh, in one study that that relates to the Great Resignation. It was a Wall Street Journal article, uh, and it was entitled “More Employees Say I Quit.” And 70% of, and this was a study with 3000 individuals would leave an organization with a bad culture. And it would not matter what the other reasons are. Maybe they're not getting as much performance feedback, but it's 70% would refuse a job if they knew the job had a bad culture and 60% said that better pay wouldn't even make a difference.
Mitchell Kusy:
Now, I wonder it's been a few months since this article, maybe better pay would make a difference cause we're having to pay more. But the most significant thing is 70% of 3000 individuals would, uh, refuse a job. If they knew it was a bad culture. This, this relates to the work of Kaufman and Buckingham in, uh, from the Gallup organization and that, uh, and, and they did a study, I believe with a hundred thousand managers worldwide. And they find people join organizations, but they leave because of a bad boss. Now it's not that absolute, but we need to look at our behavior. So right now, Don, with the Great Resignation, we've got to figure out a better way of treating people, first, because it's the right thing to do. Secondly, you're not gonna get people to come into your organization or if they come in, they're not gonna stay.
Don MacPherson:
As we were talking earlier, you were talking about the toxic behaviors and toxic leaders and how to overcome them. And one of the things that jumped out at me is just the importance of psychological safety. So maybe you could talk about what psychological safety is and how you can create it as a leader.
Mitchell Kusy:
Right? That's great. Psychological safety is really important. Psychological safety refers to your comfort level that you can speak with honesty and authenticity and not disrespectfully, but with honesty and authenticity and know that something detrimental isn’t going to happen to you. If you're at a team meeting and, um, there's, you don't agree with what someone said. If the team has psychological safety, um, if you said something like, well, I really disagree with that, Joan, um, let's talk through it. And Joan says, yeah, I wanna hear what your thoughts are on this. That team has psychological safety, but if the person says, I really want to talk with you about this, I disagree with you. And the, the, the response is, you know, you disagree with me all the time. I'm sort of fed up and that person has less psychological safety. And it doesn't point to just one person. What, what does the team, what is the team doing to create this environment of respect?
Um, one of the interesting strategies about this, that I, since we're talking about teams here is I, uh, I suggest starting every single team meeting - five minutes or 10, if you have it, but five with this, what is one that someone has done we're witness the past two weeks that brings us closer to achieving our mission or our vision? Let's talk about it. And what is also one obstacle that got in the way of someone being able to achieve our mission or vision? Five to 10 minutes, every single team meeting. Now, what you're doing is you're integrating the value of the mission, uh, into, pardon me, you're integrating the mission and the values of the organization, integrating the fabric of what we do every day. And if a leader says to me, when I, I teach them the strategy, “we don't have time there. We got so much on our agenda.”
I say “this is your agenda. This is your agenda to figure out what your team is going to do and what individuals on your team will do to support the mission or the vision or the values of the organization.“ And secondly, I find so much of what's on a team meeting doesn't need to be there. You can do an update by email, et cetera, but this is, you know, it's interesting when I teach this strategy and leaders try it for a couple months, they say, “you know, Mitch, you're wrong on one thing.” I say, “what's that?” “I don't wanna do five to 10 minutes. I'm doing 30 minutes, every other meeting, because it's so important.”
Don MacPherson:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that because now you have 100% of the organization or the team who is problem solving. And you're also, at the same time, creating a culture of recognition, which I love by acknowledging the person who has helped us come closer to our mission. I think that's really, really important.
Mitchell Kusy:
You know, Don, there's an add-on individual strategy to that. Most organizations have a performance appraisal, um, uh, form or process. And I say, add this, if you're a leader, have each person state one thing that they plan to do over the next three months, six months that will help the organization or the team achieve its vision and then be a resource to that person to help them achieve that.
Don MacPherson:
In addition to the strategies you've already shared, what other tips or strategies can you share with the audience to help combat the Great Resignation and address why people are not working there or why people are not choosing to stay with their current employer?
Mitchell Kusy:
That's a great question, Don. A few other things that, uh, come to mind was revamp your exit interviews. Uh, one of the things that I found is if, if someone is working for a toxic leader and they have decided to quit, you're not gonna change their mind. First of all, however, you really want to find out what's going on. And if, and, and I know HR individuals do this so well, they know how they know really how to interview. I found one thing that counters the authenticity of that interview is that often the individual who is reporting to a toxic individual won't report the facts of why they're leaving, and one would say, well, what's going on? Why wouldn't they say that they had this boss who was they worst boss they’ve ever had? There's a high probability that they're threatened. And they, they might feel that that boss could ruin their career and their new job. So one of the things that I suggest is this, that, uh, the human resources individual says, you know, we really wanna find out more about your experience working here. And maybe once the dust settles here, may I contact you in three months or six months and find out about your experiences? I find that it's a greater, higher probability you're gonna get at the most accurate information.
Don MacPherson:
What I love about that strategy is that it allows the individual to leave the organization and start at another organization and compare those organizations. Because we always think the grass is greener, but you know, three months or six months later, you start to see, oh, this organization looked great on the outside, but you know, I'm dealing with the same things possibly. It gives the individual some perspective.
Mitchell Kusy:
Yep. Perspective is key. Another is don't gossip. One of the, you know, Socrates said something to the effect, is it useful? Is it right? And I add one more. It does. Even if it's true, you don't gossip. And what that, and what psychologically gossip has, what's called secondary gain. Secondary gain means when we're gossiping about someone we're licking our chops saying, can you believe the way he just talked with that CEO? I can't believe she takes it. And we're loving this. So you need to extract yourself from gossip. It's not healthy. It brings down an organization. The way you don't wanna do it is point your finger at someone and say you shouldn't gossip. Instead. Here's a better way of doing this. I know I've been part of these conversations in the past. I don't feel good about myself when I'm talking about this individual.
So now I'm gonna extract myself from further conversations. You're not telling them what they're doing is bad. You're just saying it's not good for me. Also, back when we opened this interview, you talked about your fear that what it, if you're toxic, et cetera. And I said, well, you're not Don. We are all uncivil at times. And we're uncivil. We need to understand how to apologize in Western culture. We do not know how to apologize. The way we apologize in Western culture, Don is we say something like, “I'm sorry. I apologize.” But, and what communication experts have found is what comes after the, but people often regard as the excuse that negates the apology. So I can guarantee your listeners can't do this unless they write it down. There's a four-step apology. The first part of the apology is frame what you've done in the past. Something like I know I have done a lot of interrupting at meetings and it is disrespectful period. Second, share the impact on others. I know that people are likely not to trust me or not to come to me with advice for advice. Third express sorrow. Now is when you say I apologize or I'm sorry, and no, but. And the fourth is to rectify. What I intend to do in the future is I'm going force myself to pause to see if anyone has anything to add.
However, if I error and I don't pause enough, you have my permission to say, “Hey, Mitch, I need to interrupt you now.” And that'll be my cue that I need to pause. And that is a four-step apology. And I found that without of rectifying, what you're doing, um, if you don't have that fourth step in particular, they are all important, but without that step you're just doing the apology, but, um, continuing the old behavior,
Don MacPherson:
So you, you have been in the leadership space, coaching, developing leaders for a long time for decades. What has changed with leadership or leadership expectations during your career?
Mitchell Kusy:
I think more and more leaders are aware that we need to engage people in having the conversations, sometimes difficult conversations. That doesn't mean that we engage people all the time, because sometimes a leader has to make a decision with no input and has to make a decision based on immediacy, et cetera, most decisions are better made by engaging others. And the one thing that I found that leaders are better and better at, from, you know, 20 years ago is that they understand the power of engagement early on.
Don MacPherson:
Yeah. And it seems like in order to do that effectively, the skill of emotional intelligence is, uh, is of paramount importance for leaders.
Mitchell Kusy:
You're right. Um, emotional intelligence is key and a number of studies, uh, hundreds of studies have been done that found that leaders that have a higher amount of emotional intelligence, um, have greater, uh, performance in the organization.
Don MacPherson:
One thing I wanted to ask you about, we touched on it very early in our discussion here is the importance of diversity, equity and inclusion and sustainability. It seems like those are two metrics that have become critically important for CEOs. And I'm wondering if you are seeing that as well. I'm seeing it as an important attraction tool for organizations, but also the metrics are critical for customers and for suppliers. So I'm wondering if you're seeing that as well.
Mitchell Kusy:
Yes. I'm seeing more and more organizations look at the power of diversity, equity and inclusion. And the reason I say power is that initially, oh 5, 8, 10 years ago, um, leaders were looking at diversity and equity and inclusion as way to increase, enhance their business. Which of course it can do. More importantly, they're looking at it because they, they realize that talent that they have not been engaging talent as they should. They have not been promoting individuals as they should. Um, it's the right thing to do, um, in organizations, in our communities. Um, so, uh, yes, I'm finding it more and more, uh, and the whole notion that it sustains the, a greater probability sustaining the vision of the organization when we, um, include diversity, equity and inclusion in our vision.
Don MacPherson:
My last question for you. And I can't remember if I heard you talk about this or read it in something you wrote, but it has to do with perfume.
Mitchell Kusy:
Oh yeah.
Don MacPherson:
And there's a story about you being on an elevator and smelling someone's perfume.
Mitchell Kusy:
Yes.
Don MacPherson:
And so, so tell us about that story, because I think it brings us back to the beginning of the interview.
Mitchell Kusy:
It's great. It's great closure. Sometimes people say, well, how did you get in this? How does a nice person like you get into a nasty business of dealing with toxic behaviors? I would like to say it was planned, uh, not necessarily so. About 15 years ago before I wrote my, my book Toxic Workplace. And obviously before Why I Don’t Work Here Anymore, I walked into an elevator and smelled this perfume and I got sick to my stomach. And it was days later that I realized the reason I got sick to my stomach. It was the perfume worn by a woman I worked with who was highly toxic. And it’s happened three times in my life with that same perfume, sick to my stomach. And that was sort of the, the benchmark that said to me, you know what, it's not only about increasing team performance. It's not only about enhancing organizational performance. It's about respect and looking at our own personal wellbeing and creating a psychologically safe work environment and culture for individuals.
Don MacPherson:
Mitch. This has been a fabulous conversation. Thank you for your time and thank you for being a genius.
Don MacPherson:
Thank you for listening to 12 Geniuses. In our next episode, I talk with Dr. Vanessa Druskat from the University of New Hampshire. Dr. Druskat is a leader in the field of team collaboration and emotional intelligence. In our discussion, we talk about what leaders need to do to create superior performing teams. That episode will be released March 29th, 2022. Thank you to Jonathan, Jay, Tony, and the rest of the production team at GLProUK in London. If you love this podcast, please let us know by subscribing and leaving us a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast app/ To subscribe to 12 Geniuses, please go to 12 geniuses.com. Thanks for listening and thank for being a genius.
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